[ih] Comments re the packet radio discussion

Tue Apr 21 13:14:38 PDT 2026

13rot?

On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 4:10 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:

> I thought probably an ancient variant of Klingonese.  Sadly Google
> Translate doesn't seem to support either.  /J
>
> On 4/21/26 12:32, Vint Cerf wrote:
>
> Cardassian?
> v
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 3:00 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
>
>> I just noticed an interesting aspect of the online PRTNs.  One I randomly
>> picked (PRTN 81), which states:
>>
>> The model being used to examine spoofing and physical security can |
>> also be used to examine some of the system protocol issues, So far the
>> model has been used to examine systems with a finite number of terminals,
>> multiple repeater systems and the carrier sense hidden terminal problem
>> (in which some terminals cannot hear other terminals, yet all terminals
>> can block transmissions to the station). The effect of different numbers
>> of buffers at the terminals has also been examined, The simulation |
>> models are being used to supplement ths understanding (gained from sna-
>> lytical results) of packet radio systems so.that. the experimental packet :
>> transmission and receiving system can incorporate features that will be
>> found in an operational packet radio
>>
>>
>> Makes sense.  Tell me more.  A subsequent paragraph explains in more
>> detail:
>>
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>> eae onkwsxs oF beats nood nat Iebow
>> TD ‘ edt bee ame tave nernaqet PAgh? Lies
>> | albaheres aadto <aek TouaRs sleainias euros. dotity nb)
>> eet to tootte ed? ‘s(aotzaza edt of paatectire ant Moold «
>> whe ot Denknuxe Gesd onix aed efonterrs? ody se evotted |
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>> _ toatowg fescomtsegze edt tody. o8. emorexe otha texiaq te (ed Iwas’: fentiy j
>> od Sikw tals sourtast ebaroqroeat men mstoye guivkscer his note a buat cence?
>>
>>
>> I guess I'm still not allowed to read this PRTN....
>>
>> Medete ont to you too!
>>
>> /Jack
>>
>>
>> On 4/21/26 11:48, Jack Haverty wrote:
>>
>> Wow.  I just looked at the PRTNs.  They seem to have been put online very
>> recently, i.e., in July 2025, 40+ years after being written. They're also
>> apparently the only documents related to "Packet Radio" available at
>> archive.org, and the description on archive.org seems to indicate that
>> they were obtained from somebody's archive of amateur radio materials.
>>
>> I recall that, circa 1980, it was very difficult to get a copy of PRTNs.
>> If you weren't working on one of the contracts, the documents weren't
>> available to you.   At BBN, the PR work was done in a different Division
>> from the one I was in, working on their own ARPA contracts.  In contrast,
>> things like RFCs were easily accessible by FTP from SRI-NIC.
>>
>> I remember seeing someone's copy of a PRTN or two back then, but never
>> figured out how to get on the distribution list.   It seemed like details
>> of topics such as routing, flow control, et al in Packet Radio would be
>> relevant to similar discussions in other networking research, but it was
>> difficult to get any details, except by just asking someone else who was
>> working on some PR contracts, who were usually happy to do so and not
>> seemingly restricted in discussing their work.
>>
>> I just looked at some PRTNs from the archive.org collection and didn't
>> see any indication that they had ever been classified, or restricted
>> distribution, or FOUO, or other such things that controlled who could see
>> what.   Other than a couple of papers in conference proceedings, I never
>> saw Packet Radio reports such as PRTNs until literally today.   But I
>> remembered that PRTNs existed and likely had some interesting technical
>> information.
>>
>> Lots (but not all) of other Internet project materials were not quite
>> public but still easily available to the technical community, despite the
>> Internet being a DoD project and even a DoD Standard.
>>
>> Any idea what the unusual (for the Internet at the time) Packet Radio
>> secrecy was about...?
>>
>> /Jack
>>
>> On 4/21/26 02:01, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>
>> thanks for this additional gloss, Len - I had not remembered the prtn
>> series so it is good to have that reference in this list. Modeling and
>> analysis of networks was the primary focus of the network measurement
>> center. Had you not drawn steve crocker, jon postel and me into your lab,
>> we might never have had the amazing careers we actually have had.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 12:58 AM Leonard Kleinrock via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> Here are some thoughts to add to the group’s email thread regarding
>> packet
>> radio, material of which some of you are aware, but perhaps it will add
>> value for others of you.
>>
>> In addition to the implementation of testbeds and demos, there was a
>> significant level of effort on the theory and performance issues
>> surrounding packet radio.  As Vint said, Bob Kahn began the packet radio
>> program at ARPA and among the first documents to be produced were the
>> Packet Radio Temporary Notes (PRTNs).  (Here I quote liberally from the
>> key
>> site that makes available these notes), namely,
>> https://archive.org/details/packet-radio-temporary-notes?sort=date.
>> These
>> notes were a series of informal,  technical documents distributed by
>> various technology organizations from 1972 through 1983. Their purpose
>> was
>> to share research, experimentation, and development progress related to
>> packet radio.  Regarding the word “Temporary”,  unlike polished
>> publications, PRTNs were often quick releases of ideas, experiments, and
>> software related to packet radio. They allowed for rapid sharing of
>> insights without waiting for formal publication.  The organizations that
>> were involved included ARPA, Bolt Beranek and Newman, Network Analysis
>> Corporation, Rockwell International, SRI International, Stanford
>> University, UCLA, University of Hawaii, and Xerox PARC.
>>
>> These Notes contained much of the early theoretical work on packet radio
>> which then found their way into the major journals and conferences on
>> subject.   Along the way, the analytical modeling, analysis and
>> optimization of the packet radio effort has led to a vibrant field of
>> study
>> and implementation and has contributed in no small way to the success of
>> packet radio and beyond.
>>
>> Bob Kahn was a lead author on a 1978 paper, “Advances in Packet Radio
>> Technology” <
>> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1455420> which
>> described the basic concepts of packet radio technology at that time, and
>> described an implementation of the packet radio network (called PRnet).
>>
>> Not long after, in 1982, Vint published “Packet Satellite Technology
>> Reference Sources” <
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc829?utm_source=chatgpt.com> as
>> RFC 829 in which he described the packet satellite technology and gave an
>> extensive list of references that included many of the theoretical
>> performance and modeling papers that had been published.
>>
>> Then, in 1987, Jubin and Tornow published a paper, “The DARPA Packet
>> Radio
>> Network Protocols” <
>>
>> https://ia800306.us.archive.org/20/items/DARPA_Packet_Radio_Network_Protocols/DARPA%20Packet%20Radio%20Network%20Protocols.pdf>
>>
>> describing the state of the PRNet and focused on the protocols.
>>
>> It is no surprise that Kahn’s packet radio work is tightly linked to his
>> collaboration with Vint which led to their design of TCP/IP. In some
>> ways,
>> packet radio was a stress test for TCP/IP under the extreme conditions of
>> loss, delay and mobility due to different underlying media and networks.
>> One can trace the lineage from ARPANET packet switching (wired, fixed
>> nodes) to PRNET packet radio (wireless, networked, mobile nodes) to
>> Internet (ARPANET + PRNET + SATNET).  The wireless side then moved to
>> Survivable Adaptive Radio Networks (SURAN) and then to Mobile Ad Hoc
>> Networks (MANETs) and now modern wireless ad hoc systems.
>>
>> Hope this brief history is of some interest.
>>
>> Len
>> --
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>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
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> Vint Cerf
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-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346

until further notice