[ih] Comments re the packet radio discussion
Jack Haverty
jack at 3kitty.org
Tue Apr 21 13:10:02 PDT 2026
I thought probably an ancient variant of Klingonese. Sadly Google
Translate doesn't seem to support either. /J
On 4/21/26 12:32, Vint Cerf wrote:
> Cardassian?
> v
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 3:00 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
>
> I just noticed an interesting aspect of the online PRTNs. One I
> randomly picked (PRTN 81), which states:
>
> The model being used to examine spoofing and physical security can |
> also be used to examine some of the system protocol issues, So far the
> model has been used to examine systems with a finite number of terminals,
> multiple repeater systems and the carrier sense hidden terminal problem
> (in which some terminals cannot hear other terminals, yet all terminals
> can block transmissions to the station). The effect of different numbers
> of buffers at the terminals has also been examined, The simulation |
> models are being used to supplement ths understanding (gained from sna-
> lytical results) of packet radio systems so.that. the experimental packet :
> transmission and receiving system can incorporate features that will be
> found in an operational packet radio
>
>
> Makes sense. Tell me more. A subsequent paragraph explains in
> more detail:
>
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>
>
> I guess I'm still not allowed to read this PRTN....
>
> Medete ont to you too!
>
> /Jack
>
>
> On 4/21/26 11:48, Jack Haverty wrote:
>> Wow. I just looked at the PRTNs. They seem to have been put
>> online very recently, i.e., in July 2025, 40+ years after being
>> written. They're also apparently the only documents related to
>> "Packet Radio" available at archive.org <http://archive.org>, and
>> the description on archive.org <http://archive.org> seems to
>> indicate that they were obtained from somebody's archive of
>> amateur radio materials.
>>
>> I recall that, circa 1980, it was very difficult to get a copy of
>> PRTNs. If you weren't working on one of the contracts, the
>> documents weren't available to you. At BBN, the PR work was
>> done in a different Division from the one I was in, working on
>> their own ARPA contracts. In contrast, things like RFCs were
>> easily accessible by FTP from SRI-NIC.
>>
>> I remember seeing someone's copy of a PRTN or two back then, but
>> never figured out how to get on the distribution list. It
>> seemed like details of topics such as routing, flow control, et
>> al in Packet Radio would be relevant to similar discussions in
>> other networking research, but it was difficult to get any
>> details, except by just asking someone else who was working on
>> some PR contracts, who were usually happy to do so and not
>> seemingly restricted in discussing their work.
>>
>> I just looked at some PRTNs from the archive.org
>> <http://archive.org> collection and didn't see any indication
>> that they had ever been classified, or restricted distribution,
>> or FOUO, or other such things that controlled who could see
>> what. Other than a couple of papers in conference proceedings,
>> I never saw Packet Radio reports such as PRTNs until literally
>> today. But I remembered that PRTNs existed and likely had some
>> interesting technical information.
>>
>> Lots (but not all) of other Internet project materials were not
>> quite public but still easily available to the technical
>> community, despite the Internet being a DoD project and even a
>> DoD Standard.
>>
>> Any idea what the unusual (for the Internet at the time) Packet
>> Radio secrecy was about...?
>>
>> /Jack
>>
>> On 4/21/26 02:01, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>> thanks for this additional gloss, Len - I had not remembered the
>>> prtn
>>> series so it is good to have that reference in this list.
>>> Modeling and
>>> analysis of networks was the primary focus of the network
>>> measurement
>>> center. Had you not drawn steve crocker, jon postel and me into
>>> your lab,
>>> we might never have had the amazing careers we actually have had.
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 12:58 AM Leonard Kleinrock via
>>> Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here are some thoughts to add to the group’s email thread
>>>> regarding packet
>>>> radio, material of which some of you are aware, but perhaps it
>>>> will add
>>>> value for others of you.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to the implementation of testbeds and demos, there
>>>> was a
>>>> significant level of effort on the theory and performance issues
>>>> surrounding packet radio. As Vint said, Bob Kahn began the
>>>> packet radio
>>>> program at ARPA and among the first documents to be produced
>>>> were the
>>>> Packet Radio Temporary Notes (PRTNs). (Here I quote liberally
>>>> from the key
>>>> site that makes available these notes), namely,
>>>> https://archive.org/details/packet-radio-temporary-notes?sort=date.
>>>> These
>>>> notes were a series of informal, technical documents
>>>> distributed by
>>>> various technology organizations from 1972 through 1983. Their
>>>> purpose was
>>>> to share research, experimentation, and development progress
>>>> related to
>>>> packet radio. Regarding the word “Temporary”, unlike polished
>>>> publications, PRTNs were often quick releases of ideas,
>>>> experiments, and
>>>> software related to packet radio. They allowed for rapid
>>>> sharing of
>>>> insights without waiting for formal publication. The
>>>> organizations that
>>>> were involved included ARPA, Bolt Beranek and Newman, Network
>>>> Analysis
>>>> Corporation, Rockwell International, SRI International, Stanford
>>>> University, UCLA, University of Hawaii, and Xerox PARC.
>>>>
>>>> These Notes contained much of the early theoretical work on
>>>> packet radio
>>>> which then found their way into the major journals and
>>>> conferences on
>>>> subject. Along the way, the analytical modeling, analysis and
>>>> optimization of the packet radio effort has led to a vibrant
>>>> field of study
>>>> and implementation and has contributed in no small way to the
>>>> success of
>>>> packet radio and beyond.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Kahn was a lead author on a 1978 paper, “Advances in Packet
>>>> Radio
>>>> Technology” <
>>>> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1455420
>>>> <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1455420>>
>>>> which
>>>> described the basic concepts of packet radio technology at that
>>>> time, and
>>>> described an implementation of the packet radio network (called
>>>> PRnet).
>>>>
>>>> Not long after, in 1982, Vint published “Packet Satellite
>>>> Technology
>>>> Reference Sources” <
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc829?utm_source=chatgpt.com>
>>>> as
>>>> RFC 829 in which he described the packet satellite technology
>>>> and gave an
>>>> extensive list of references that included many of the theoretical
>>>> performance and modeling papers that had been published.
>>>>
>>>> Then, in 1987, Jubin and Tornow published a paper, “The DARPA
>>>> Packet Radio
>>>> Network Protocols” <
>>>> https://ia800306.us.archive.org/20/items/DARPA_Packet_Radio_Network_Protocols/DARPA%20Packet%20Radio%20Network%20Protocols.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> describing the state of the PRNet and focused on the protocols.
>>>>
>>>> It is no surprise that Kahn’s packet radio work is tightly
>>>> linked to his
>>>> collaboration with Vint which led to their design of TCP/IP. In
>>>> some ways,
>>>> packet radio was a stress test for TCP/IP under the extreme
>>>> conditions of
>>>> loss, delay and mobility due to different underlying media and
>>>> networks.
>>>> One can trace the lineage from ARPANET packet switching (wired,
>>>> fixed
>>>> nodes) to PRNET packet radio (wireless, networked, mobile
>>>> nodes) to
>>>> Internet (ARPANET + PRNET + SATNET). The wireless side then
>>>> moved to
>>>> Survivable Adaptive Radio Networks (SURAN) and then to Mobile
>>>> Ad Hoc
>>>> Networks (MANETs) and now modern wireless ad hoc systems.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this brief history is of some interest.
>>>>
>>>> Len
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> -
>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
>
>
>
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