[ih] A comment on the seven layer model

[Jack Haverty]

Yes, could be.  Lick's intergalactic paper was distributed in 1963 or 
so, so it might have influenced a 1970 movie.  Such sci-fi, in movies 
but especially books, provided inspirations for the hackers building 
computer stuff.  We all read scifi.  The "matrix" network in Neuromancer 
(1984ish) was especially relevant for the ARPANET and Internet.

Star Trek - the original TV series in the 60s - was another source of 
ideas.  Sometimes we could see some tech in Star Trek and think "maybe 
we could actually build that".  Laser weapons are one example just 
recently becoming reality.   AI is another, where the computer 
understands spoken English (as well as Klingon et al of course).

Curiously, even in the far future of Star Trek, computers weren't all 
powerful.  Some tasks took a while.  But the computer would work at it 
while the humans did something else -- just like Lick's vision.

Jack

On 4/22/25 15:26, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote:
> OH MY, vis-a-vis:
>
>     "Lick's vision was much more that the computers would all be mostly
>     talking to each other.   I found it interesting to read recently that
>     someone connected two AIs to each other, and they developed their own
>     language to better communicate amongst themselves."
>
> that's a scene right out of "Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970)"
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064177/
> (or maybe "Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970)" is right out of Lick's 
> vision?)
>
> g
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 3:09 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history 
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>     On 4/22/25 13:58, Steve Crocker wrote:
>     > Jack,
>     >
>     > I liked your comment, "I gave up long ago on trying to stuff
>     this into
>     > a 7-layer diagram and explain it."
>     >
>     > I was part of the original group that designed the first set of
>     host
>     > level protocols for the Arpanet.  From the beginning we thought in
>     > terms of thin layers that provided useful services, with the
>     proviso
>     > that others would build on, ignore and build around, or insert
>     other
>     > layers in between as needed
>     >
>     > I turned my attention away from protocol design when I moved to
>     > (D)ARPA in 1971 and focused on AI and other topics. When I
>     re-engaged
>     > with the network architecture and discovered OSI had
>     determined there
>     > were exactly seven layers, I nearly fell over laughing.
>     >
>     > The seven layer model has been useful, but it is not complete or
>     > definitive.
>     >
>     > Steve
>     >
>
>     My first encounter with Networking was when I became one of Lick's
>     thesis students, and got thoroughly indoctrinated into his
>     "Intergalactic Network" vision.   Later he was my boss as we
>     worked to
>     implement some of his vision with not enough computer or networking
>     power.   Computers would be somehow connected through networks, every
>     user would have their own "personal computer", and those computers
>     would
>     interact to help humans do whatever humans do, only occasionally
>     actually interacting with the human through some kind of UI.
>
>     That picture doesn't fit into the 7-layer model, which was derived
>     from
>     the world of telephony and "calls".  It only addressed what was
>     happening during the times when the human was interacting with some
>     single computer to use some program.  The notions of Presentation or
>     Session is a clue to its intermittent and human-centric nature.  I
>     think
>     the 7-layer model actually slowed down progress towards the new
>     way of
>     Lick's vision.  Maybe still does.   Not just incomplete, but also
>     obstructionist.
>
>     Lick's vision was much more that the computers would all be mostly
>     talking to each other.   I found it interesting to read recently that
>     someone connected two AIs to each other, and they developed their own
>     language to better communicate amongst themselves.
>
>     I think Lick would like today's Internet, which seems to me pretty
>     close
>     to his vision, but he'd also see the problems that still need to be
>     addressed.
>
>     Jack
>     -- 
>     Internet-history mailing list
>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
>
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
>

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