[ih] A comment on the seven layer model

[Vint Cerf]

John McCarthy was heard to say that someday someone would say that "100
years ago they had books that did not talk to each other...."

v


On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 6:27 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> OH MY, vis-a-vis:
>
> "Lick's vision was much more that the computers would all be mostly
> talking to each other.   I found it interesting to read recently that
> someone connected two AIs to each other, and they developed their own
> language to better communicate amongst themselves."
>
> that's a scene right out of "Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970)"
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064177/
> (or maybe "Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970)" is right out of Lick's
> vision?)
>
> g
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 3:09 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > On 4/22/25 13:58, Steve Crocker wrote:
> > > Jack,
> > >
> > > I liked your comment, "I gave up long ago on trying to stuff this into
> > > a 7-layer diagram and explain it."
> > >
> > > I was part of the original group that designed the first set of host
> > > level protocols for the Arpanet.  From the beginning we thought in
> > > terms of thin layers that provided useful services, with the proviso
> > > that others would build on, ignore and build around, or insert other
> > > layers in between as needed
> > >
> > > I turned my attention away from protocol design when I moved to
> > > (D)ARPA in 1971 and focused on AI and other topics. When I re-engaged
> > > with the network architecture and discovered OSI had determined there
> > > were exactly seven layers, I nearly fell over laughing.
> > >
> > > The seven layer model has been useful, but it is not complete or
> > > definitive.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> >
> > My first encounter with Networking was when I became one of Lick's
> > thesis students, and got thoroughly indoctrinated into his
> > "Intergalactic Network" vision.   Later he was my boss as we worked to
> > implement some of his vision with not enough computer or networking
> > power.   Computers would be somehow connected through networks, every
> > user would have their own "personal computer", and those computers would
> > interact to help humans do whatever humans do, only occasionally
> > actually interacting with the human through some kind of UI.
> >
> > That picture doesn't fit into the 7-layer model, which was derived from
> > the world of telephony and "calls".  It only addressed what was
> > happening during the times when the human was interacting with some
> > single computer to use some program.  The notions of Presentation or
> > Session is a clue to its intermittent and human-centric nature.  I think
> > the 7-layer model actually slowed down progress towards the new way of
> > Lick's vision.  Maybe still does.   Not just incomplete, but also
> > obstructionist.
> >
> > Lick's vision was much more that the computers would all be mostly
> > talking to each other.   I found it interesting to read recently that
> > someone connected two AIs to each other, and they developed their own
> > language to better communicate amongst themselves.
> >
> > I think Lick would like today's Internet, which seems to me pretty close
> > to his vision, but he'd also see the problems that still need to be
> > addressed.
> >
> > Jack
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
>
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


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