[ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]
Guy Almes
galmes at tamu.edu
Fri Jun 14 18:58:15 PDT 2024
Exactly,
-- Guy
On 6/14/24 7:54 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> The NSF International Connections program run by Steve Goldstein for a
> time, was a key facilitator of linking national research and education
> networks to the NSFNET backbone and, through the Internet architecture,
> to each other. Hard to overstate how important that program was.
>
> v
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 7:20 PM Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu
> <mailto:galmes at tamu.edu>> wrote:
>
> Brian,
> Exactly. Given IBM's transition from giant to non-giant over the
> last few decades, we should never forget their contributions, including
> that wonderful T1 line from Cornell to CERN.
>
> The odd IDT hack was all about international phone calls, but
> similar
> things played out with leased lines. As you point out, not only were
> they expensive, bud, in the early days, "illegal".
> Then there's the whole "half-circuit" concept.
>
> In an odd sense, the NSFnet was able to play a little bit of the
> role
> of IDT. It was possible for (I believe) NSFnet and, later,
> Internet2 to
> connect with early Internet components in various countries and offer
> "free transit". While not super-expensive and certainly
> well-intentioned, it did have definite advantages for the US by
> maintaining a kind of US-centrism of the international Internet
> topology
> for several years.
> The historical consequences of this were not merely economic. I
> now
> appreciate (even if I don't fully understand it) how it combined with
> the relative openness of US government attitudes toward the
> "regulation"
> of the Internet to extend that openness to the international Internet,
> with mostly good and mostly enduring consequences.
>
> -- Guy
>
> On 6/14/24 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
> > disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
> > pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
> > than Madrid-Geneva overland.
> >
> >> We forget how huge the difference was between
> >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> >
> > Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US
> researchers
> > about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was
> that
> > research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN
> should
> > pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager
> in the
> > US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.
> >
> > That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
> > 1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
> > anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
> > asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
> >> Three interesting stories.
> >> A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s,
> there
> >> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
> >> exists as idt.net
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://idt.net__;!!KwNVnqRv!BySc1ZyMadb3KL9Y85g8b2-zvPEE99f6bVPW8ht5VvP1XNj1c6vflmBYLE9KiyluHfrMxSz77XM$>). It had a switching facility in New Jersey. Its
> >> customers were typically from Europe. An example given
> customer, say
> >> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey
> phone
> >> number. If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
> >> call that NJ phone number. The switch at IDT would "answer" the
> call
> >> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer. In the example
> >> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
> >> actually trying to get to. The switch would then hang up, place a
> >> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas,
> place a
> >> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and
> splice the
> >> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now
> talking to the
> >> target Dallas person. The cost charged to the customer included the
> >> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the
> international
> >> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee. The value all
> hinged on
> >> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper
> than
> >> the call from Germany to the US.
> >> The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus
> with two
> >> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
> >> overpricing by European PTTs. One can imagine how unhappy the
> PTTs were.
> >> By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup
> played a
> >> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
> >> prices for international calls. Again, by some tellings of the
> story,
> >> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
> >>
> >> If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
> >> innocent word "between". We forget how huge the difference was
> between
> >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> >>
> >> At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone
> companies
> >> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> -- Guy
> >>
> >> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva
> and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual
> switching took place on deregulated US soil.
> >>>
> >>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies
> based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to
> the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened
> inside the building was a trade secret ;-).
> >>>
> >>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about
> 1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General
> Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT.
> At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant
> that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have
> some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to
> remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a
> treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the
> biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to
> respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Brian Carpenter
> >>>
> >>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago?
> "star-something?"
> >>>>
> >>>> v
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47 PM John Day via Internet-history <
> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the
> cheapest and
> >>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through
> Northern Virginia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted
> networking
> >>>>> outside of academia. At the time, I was involved in
> deploying and
> >>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+
> countries.
> >>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could
> literally (almost) see
> >>>>> each other across a river. But they were in two different
> countries. Due
> >>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive
> to lease a
> >>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was
> to lease a
> >>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled
> thousands of
> >>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and
> back. CEPT may
> >>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
> networking,
> >>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet. I
> don't know when
> >>>>> those rules changed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jack Haverty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks
> to EARN for
> >>>>>>> making the case.
> >>>>>>> v
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42 AM Daniele Bovio via
> Internet-history <
> >>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Julf,
> >>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in
> Europe to provide
> >>>>>>>> network services amongst different
> institutions/corporations within
> >>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the
> monopoly of
> >>>>> voice
> >>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits
> amongst an
> >>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport
> services. As a
> >>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the
> CEPT (the
> >>>>> European
> >>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
> operations
> >>>>> down
> >>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that the
> purpose of the
> >>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each
> other, i.e.
> >>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community,
> and eventually
> >>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue
> to operate.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
> >>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org>]
> >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com
> <mailto:julf at julf.com>>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion
> on the Birth
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12
> Meeting in
> >>>>> Athens,
> >>>>>>>> Greece]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to
> start with?
> >>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> >>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like
> JANET (where
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> "lived").
> >>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking
> 1985-88)
> >>>>> Kindest
> >>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Olivier
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards
> the academic
> >>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Julf
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via
> Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>All the best,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> <tel:+421%20919%20416%20714> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> <tel:+420%20775%20230%20885> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> <mailto:frantisek.borsik at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>> >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>--
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>> >>> >>> >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
> >>>
> >
>
>
>
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