[ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]

Vint Cerf vint at google.com
Fri Jun 14 16:54:48 PDT 2024 

The NSF International Connections program run by Steve Goldstein for a
time, was a key facilitator of linking national research and education
networks to the NSFNET backbone and, through the Internet architecture, to
each other. Hard to overstate how important that program was.

v


On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 7:20 PM Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:

> Brian,
>    Exactly.  Given IBM's transition from giant to non-giant over the
> last few decades, we should never forget their contributions, including
> that wonderful T1 line from Cornell to CERN.
>
>    The odd IDT hack was all about international phone calls, but similar
> things played out with leased lines.  As you point out, not only were
> they expensive, bud, in the early days, "illegal".
>    Then there's the whole "half-circuit" concept.
>
>    In an odd sense, the NSFnet was able to play a little bit of the role
> of IDT.  It was possible for (I believe) NSFnet and, later, Internet2 to
> connect with early Internet components in various countries and offer
> "free transit".  While not super-expensive and certainly
> well-intentioned, it did have definite advantages for the US by
> maintaining a kind of US-centrism of the international Internet topology
> for several years.
>    The historical consequences of this were not merely economic.  I now
> appreciate (even if I don't fully understand it) how it combined with
> the relative openness of US government attitudes toward the "regulation"
> of the Internet to extend that openness to the international Internet,
> with mostly good and mostly enduring consequences.
>
>         -- Guy
>
> On 6/14/24 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
> > disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
> > pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
> > than Madrid-Geneva overland.
> >
> >>  We forget how huge the difference was between
> >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> >
> > Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US researchers
> > about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was that
> > research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN should
> > pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager in the
> > US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.
> >
> > That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
> > 1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
> > anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
> > asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.
> >
> >       Brian
> >
> > On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
> >>     Three interesting stories.
> >>     A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s, there
> >> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
> >> exists as idt.net).  It had a switching facility in New Jersey.  Its
> >> customers were typically from Europe.  An example given customer, say
> >> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey phone
> >> number.  If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
> >> call that NJ phone number.  The switch at IDT would "answer" the call
> >> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.  In the example
> >> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
> >> actually trying to get to.  The switch would then hang up, place a
> >> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas, place a
> >> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and splice the
> >> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now talking to the
> >> target Dallas person.  The cost charged to the customer included the
> >> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the international
> >> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.  The value all hinged on
> >> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper than
> >> the call from Germany to the US.
> >>     The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus with two
> >> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
> >> overpricing by European PTTs.  One can imagine how unhappy the PTTs
> were.
> >>     By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup played
> a
> >> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
> >> prices for international calls.  Again, by some tellings of the story,
> >> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
> >>
> >>     If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
> >> innocent word "between".  We forget how huge the difference was between
> >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> >>
> >>     At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone companies
> >> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
> >>
> >>     Regards,
> >>      -- Guy
> >>
> >> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and
> Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took
> place on deregulated US soil.
> >>>
> >>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in
> Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and
> out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a
> trade secret ;-).
> >>>
> >>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986,
> Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper
> to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss
> allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be
> stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I
> remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as
> value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't
> apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no
> idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>       Brian Carpenter
> >>>
> >>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> >>>>
> >>>> v
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47 PM John Day via Internet-history <
> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest
> and
> >>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern
> Virginia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted
> networking
> >>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
> >>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+
> countries.
> >>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally
> (almost) see
> >>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different
> countries.  Due
> >>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to
> lease a
> >>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to
> lease a
> >>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
> >>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT
> may
> >>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
> networking,
> >>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know
> when
> >>>>> those rules changed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jack Haverty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN
> for
> >>>>>>> making the case.
> >>>>>>> v
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42 AM Daniele Bovio via
> Internet-history <
> >>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Julf,
> >>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to
> provide
> >>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations
> within
> >>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the
> monopoly of
> >>>>> voice
> >>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits
> amongst an
> >>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services.
> As a
> >>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
> >>>>> European
> >>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
> operations
> >>>>> down
> >>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose
> of the
> >>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other,
> i.e.
> >>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and
> eventually
> >>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to
> operate.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
> >>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the
> Birth
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
> >>>>> Athens,
> >>>>>>>> Greece]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start
> with?
> >>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> >>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET
> (where
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> "lived").
> >>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> >>>>> Kindest
> >>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Olivier
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the
> academic
> >>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>       Julf
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>All the best,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> <+421%20919%20416%20714> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>>
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> <
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> <
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> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> <
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> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>
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> <
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> <
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> >>>> >>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>--
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>
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> <
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> <
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> >>>> >>> >>> >>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>
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> <
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> <
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> >
> >>>
> >
>


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