[ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]

Guy Almes galmes at tamu.edu
Fri Jun 14 16:20:48 PDT 2024 

Brian,
   Exactly.  Given IBM's transition from giant to non-giant over the 
last few decades, we should never forget their contributions, including 
that wonderful T1 line from Cornell to CERN.

   The odd IDT hack was all about international phone calls, but similar 
things played out with leased lines.  As you point out, not only were 
they expensive, bud, in the early days, "illegal".
   Then there's the whole "half-circuit" concept.

   In an odd sense, the NSFnet was able to play a little bit of the role 
of IDT.  It was possible for (I believe) NSFnet and, later, Internet2 to 
connect with early Internet components in various countries and offer 
"free transit".  While not super-expensive and certainly 
well-intentioned, it did have definite advantages for the US by 
maintaining a kind of US-centrism of the international Internet topology 
for several years.
   The historical consequences of this were not merely economic.  I now 
appreciate (even if I don't fully understand it) how it combined with 
the relative openness of US government attitudes toward the "regulation" 
of the Internet to extend that openness to the international Internet, 
with mostly good and mostly enduring consequences.

	-- Guy

On 6/14/24 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
> disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
> pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
> than Madrid-Geneva overland.
> 
>>  We forget how huge the difference was between 
>> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> 
> Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US researchers
> about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was that
> research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN should
> pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager in the
> US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.
> 
> That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
> 1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
> anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
> asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.
> 
>       Brian
> 
> On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
>>     Three interesting stories.
>>     A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s, there
>> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
>> exists as idt.net).  It had a switching facility in New Jersey.  Its
>> customers were typically from Europe.  An example given customer, say
>> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey phone
>> number.  If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
>> call that NJ phone number.  The switch at IDT would "answer" the call
>> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.  In the example
>> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
>> actually trying to get to.  The switch would then hang up, place a
>> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas, place a
>> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and splice the
>> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now talking to the
>> target Dallas person.  The cost charged to the customer included the
>> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the international
>> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.  The value all hinged on
>> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper than
>> the call from Germany to the US.
>>     The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus with two
>> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
>> overpricing by European PTTs.  One can imagine how unhappy the PTTs were.
>>     By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup played a
>> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
>> prices for international calls.  Again, by some tellings of the story,
>> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
>> 
>>     If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
>> innocent word "between".  We forget how huge the difference was between
>> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
>> 
>>     At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone companies
>> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
>> 
>>     Regards,
>> 	-- Guy
>> 
>> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took place on deregulated US soil.
>>>
>>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a trade secret ;-).
>>>
>>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>       Brian Carpenter
>>>
>>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
>>>>
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47 PM John Day via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
>>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
>>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
>>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>>>>> those rules changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>>>>>>> making the case.
>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42 AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julf,
>>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>>>>> European
>>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>>>>> Athens,
>>>>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> "lived").
>>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>>>>> Kindest
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       Julf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>All the best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>> >>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>> >>> >>> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>
>

More information about the Internet-history mailing list