[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)

[Brian E Carpenter]

On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in
> more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the
> internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went
> "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein
> essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. There was also
> X.25/X.75 traffic between US and UK as I recall. I don't know when the
> first trans-Atlantic optical cables went into operation but it can't have
> been much sooner than mid-late 1980s?

TAT-8 came live in 1989, and afaik the first fibre IP link was the
Cornell to CERN T1 link (operational in February 1990) which was
*technically* an NSFNET link, but was officially nothing of the kind.
Initially it was funded by Herb Budd of IBM as part of his EASInet
initiative.

See my book, or for more nitty-gritty, Olivier Martin's:
http://www.ictconsulting.ch/reports/European-Research-Internet-History.pdf

But of course we were running IP over 64 kb/s copper transatlantic links
before that. Certainly no CERN traffic ever knowingly depended on SATNET.
 
> Does anyone on the list know more about the period of dependency on SATNET
> before trans-Atlantic cable connections were made?

Not personally, but one of Peter Kirstein's papers** implies that it was
operational in 1979, and "the experiment led to an experimental
service [11], which operated until the late 80s." And if you look for
"SATNET" in Olivier's book, he quotes this from Peter:
"...the first meeting between NSF people and Europeans in October 1984
should be classed as a milestone. This meeting was on a Friday/Saturday,
preceding an ARPA SATNET project meeting on the Monday/Tuesday." 

** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998
https://ban.ai/multics/doc/kirstein-arpanet.pdf

Please enjoy the holidays, and best wishes for 2021.

   Brian

> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, that all agrees with my recollections.   Barry took over just about
>> the time I was moved away from the research side.
>>
>> When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service
>> mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were
>> functioning only for tests.  Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be
>> "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for
>> keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the
>> NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues.   So IMHO SATNET
>> was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user community
>> was the Europeans.
>>
>> A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world
>> end-user deployments.   That was the target of the "pipeline" from research
>> to the field.   ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN.  The Internet
>> gateways also made that journey.
>>
>> AFAIK, nothing else did.  SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the
>> projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about.
>>
>> During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the
>> SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications between
>> terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits.   That was applicable in
>> situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy might
>> be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised.
>>
>> When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming up,
>> so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the
>> pipeline.  So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field.
>>
>> /Jack
>>
>>
>> On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have
>> told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my portfolio
>> after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(.
>>
>> Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was
>> SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and the
>> other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
>>>
>>> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early
>>> 80s.  For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my
>>> responsibility at BBN.
>>>
>>> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
>>> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the
>>> NOC at BBN.   That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et
>>> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to
>>> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following
>>> in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
>>>
>>> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl
>>> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use
>>> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.  So it was functional
>>> only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
>>>
>>> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.  Instead
>>> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets,
>>> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.  Both were still in the "research" stage,
>>> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the
>>> time.
>>>
>>> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
>>> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the
>>> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control,
>>> Intelligence).
>>>
>>> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which
>>> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.  It involved
>>> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and
>>> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence
>>> organizations, etc.   That's what drove our thinking and decisions.
>>>
>>> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.
>>> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.  PRNet
>>> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?   All of that was a driver for
>>> research efforts.
>>>
>>> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were
>>> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research
>>> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven)
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects
>>> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.   I
>>> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the
>>> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.   So I
>>> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".   I'm curious how
>>> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the
>>> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational
>>> systems.   But I've not run across much written about that aspect of
>>> Internet History.
>>>
>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>
>>> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>>>
>>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN
>>> supplied the network.
>>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since
>>> I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the
>>> early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know?
>>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until
>>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of
>>>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of
>>>> the Internet.  Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP),
>>>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
>>>>
>>>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET.
>>>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl
>>>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time.
>>>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the
>>>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.   This was part of ARPA's "technology
>>>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending
>>>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund
>>>> continued research.
>>>>
>>>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.   But I do recall that
>>>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
>>>> investigating that.   IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way
>>>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.   Ken
>>>> Pogran may remember more.
>>>>
>>>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with
>>>> the Navy projects.  I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a
>>>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology
>>>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
>>>> conditions).   Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
>>>>
>>>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the
>>>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories.
>>>>
>>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>>
>>>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember)
>>>> and
>>>>> MATNET (which I do remember)?
>>>>>
>>>>> v
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number
>>>>>>> assignment.  It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a
>>>>>>> project called  Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP
>>>>>>> networking when ships were under emission control.  In 1984, I gave a
>>>>>>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group
>>>> Meeting
>>>>>>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).  I don't remember us
>>>> asking
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may
>>>> have
>>>>>>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada
>>>> implementation of
>>>>>>> the gateway at that point in time.  I don't think we had the EMCON
>>>>>> details
>>>>>>> worked out yet.  The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short
>>>>>> notice
>>>>>>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
>>>>>>> barbara
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Barbara:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a
>>>> new
>>>>>> employee at BBN in 1983.  The job on the BBN side was to figure out if
>>>>>> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard
>>>> command
>>>>>> centers.  As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP
>>>> working
>>>>>> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something
>>>> else,
>>>>>> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the
>>>> 80MB
>>>>>> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.  Rick Adams at Seismo also had a
>>>> Proteon
>>>>>> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.  And I swapped email
>>>> for the
>>>>>> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another
>>>>>> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted
>>>> that
>>>>>> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire
>>>> feature
>>>>>> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel
>>>>>> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest
>>>>>> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to
>>>> run on
>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *****
>>>>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities
>>>> and
>>>>>> mailing lists.
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>