[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)

[vinton cerf]

SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in
more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the
internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went
"operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein
essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. There was also
X.25/X.75 traffic between US and UK as I recall. I don't know when the
first trans-Atlantic optical cables went into operation but it can't have
been much sooner than mid-late 1980s?

Does anyone on the list know more about the period of dependency on SATNET
before trans-Atlantic cable connections were made?

v


On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:

> Yes, that all agrees with my recollections.   Barry took over just about
> the time I was moved away from the research side.
>
> When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service
> mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were
> functioning only for tests.  Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be
> "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for
> keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the
> NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues.   So IMHO SATNET
> was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user community
> was the Europeans.
>
> A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world
> end-user deployments.   That was the target of the "pipeline" from research
> to the field.   ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN.  The Internet
> gateways also made that journey.
>
> AFAIK, nothing else did.  SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the
> projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about.
>
> During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the
> SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications between
> terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits.   That was applicable in
> situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy might
> be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised.
>
> When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming up,
> so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the
> pipeline.  So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field.
>
> /Jack
>
>
> On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote:
>
> Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have
> told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my portfolio
> after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(.
>
> Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was
> SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and the
> other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET.
>
> v
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
>
>> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
>>
>> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early
>> 80s.  For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my
>> responsibility at BBN.
>>
>> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
>> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the
>> NOC at BBN.   That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et
>> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to
>> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following
>> in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
>>
>> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl
>> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use
>> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.  So it was functional
>> only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
>>
>> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.  Instead
>> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets,
>> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.  Both were still in the "research" stage,
>> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the
>> time.
>>
>> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
>> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the
>> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control,
>> Intelligence).
>>
>> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which
>> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.  It involved
>> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and
>> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence
>> organizations, etc.   That's what drove our thinking and decisions.
>>
>> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.
>> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.  PRNet
>> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?   All of that was a driver for
>> research efforts.
>>
>> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were
>> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research
>> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven)
>> Internet.
>>
>> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects
>> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.   I
>> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the
>> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.   So I
>> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".   I'm curious how
>> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the
>> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational
>> systems.   But I've not run across much written about that aspect of
>> Internet History.
>>
>> /Jack Haverty
>>
>> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>>
>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN
>> supplied the network.
>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since
>> I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the
>> early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know?
>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until
>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of
>>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of
>>> the Internet.  Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP),
>>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
>>>
>>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET.
>>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl
>>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time.
>>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the
>>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.   This was part of ARPA's "technology
>>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending
>>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund
>>> continued research.
>>>
>>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.   But I do recall that
>>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
>>> investigating that.   IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way
>>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.   Ken
>>> Pogran may remember more.
>>>
>>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with
>>> the Navy projects.  I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a
>>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology
>>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
>>> conditions).   Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
>>>
>>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the
>>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories.
>>>
>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>
>>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember)
>>> and
>>> > MATNET (which I do remember)?
>>> >
>>> > v
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history <
>>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
>>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>  I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number
>>> >>> assignment.  It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a
>>> >>> project called  Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP
>>> >>> networking when ships were under emission control.  In 1984, I gave a
>>> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group
>>> Meeting
>>> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).  I don't remember us
>>> asking
>>> >> for
>>> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may
>>> have
>>> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada
>>> implementation of
>>> >>> the gateway at that point in time.  I don't think we had the EMCON
>>> >> details
>>> >>> worked out yet.  The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short
>>> >> notice
>>> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
>>> >>> barbara
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hey Barbara:
>>> >>
>>> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a
>>> new
>>> >> employee at BBN in 1983.  The job on the BBN side was to figure out if
>>> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard
>>> command
>>> >> centers.  As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP
>>> working
>>> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something
>>> else,
>>> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the
>>> 80MB
>>> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.  Rick Adams at Seismo also had a
>>> Proteon
>>> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.  And I swapped email
>>> for the
>>> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another
>>> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted
>>> that
>>> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire
>>> feature
>>> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel
>>> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest
>>> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to
>>> run on
>>> >> it).
>>> >>
>>> >> Craig
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> *****
>>> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities
>>> and
>>> >> mailing lists.
>>> >> --
>>> >> Internet-history mailing list
>>> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
>>
>