[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)

[vinton cerf]

thanks so much, Brian- and best wishes for 2021!

vint


On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 1:16 AM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in
> > more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the
> > internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went
> > "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein
> > essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. There was
> also
> > X.25/X.75 traffic between US and UK as I recall. I don't know when the
> > first trans-Atlantic optical cables went into operation but it can't have
> > been much sooner than mid-late 1980s?
>
> TAT-8 came live in 1989, and afaik the first fibre IP link was the
> Cornell to CERN T1 link (operational in February 1990) which was
> *technically* an NSFNET link, but was officially nothing of the kind.
> Initially it was funded by Herb Budd of IBM as part of his EASInet
> initiative.
>
> See my book, or for more nitty-gritty, Olivier Martin's:
> http://www.ictconsulting.ch/reports/European-Research-Internet-History.pdf
>
> But of course we were running IP over 64 kb/s copper transatlantic links
> before that. Certainly no CERN traffic ever knowingly depended on SATNET.
>
> > Does anyone on the list know more about the period of dependency on
> SATNET
> > before trans-Atlantic cable connections were made?
>
> Not personally, but one of Peter Kirstein's papers** implies that it was
> operational in 1979, and "the experiment led to an experimental
> service [11], which operated until the late 80s." And if you look for
> "SATNET" in Olivier's book, he quotes this from Peter:
> "...the first meeting between NSF people and Europeans in October 1984
> should be classed as a milestone. This meeting was on a Friday/Saturday,
> preceding an ARPA SATNET project meeting on the Monday/Tuesday."
>
> ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998
> https://ban.ai/multics/doc/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
>
> Please enjoy the holidays, and best wishes for 2021.
>
>    Brian
>
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, that all agrees with my recollections.   Barry took over just about
> >> the time I was moved away from the research side.
> >>
> >> When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service
> >> mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were
> >> functioning only for tests.  Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be
> >> "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for
> >> keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the
> >> NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues.   So IMHO
> SATNET
> >> was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user
> community
> >> was the Europeans.
> >>
> >> A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world
> >> end-user deployments.   That was the target of the "pipeline" from
> research
> >> to the field.   ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN.  The
> Internet
> >> gateways also made that journey.
> >>
> >> AFAIK, nothing else did.  SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the
> >> projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about.
> >>
> >> During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the
> >> SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications
> between
> >> terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits.   That was applicable in
> >> situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy
> might
> >> be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised.
> >>
> >> When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming
> up,
> >> so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the
> >> pipeline.  So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field.
> >>
> >> /Jack
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have
> >> told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my
> portfolio
> >> after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(.
> >>
> >> Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was
> >> SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and
> the
> >> other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET.
> >>
> >> v
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
> >>>
> >>> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the
> early
> >>> 80s.  For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my
> >>> responsibility at BBN.
> >>>
> >>> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
> >>> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by
> the
> >>> NOC at BBN.   That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar
> et
> >>> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the
> task to
> >>> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service",
> following
> >>> in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
> >>>
> >>> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl
> >>> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use
> >>> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.  So it was
> functional
> >>> only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
> >>>
> >>> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.
> Instead
> >>> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets,
> >>> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.  Both were still in the "research"
> stage,
> >>> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at
> the
> >>> time.
> >>>
> >>> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
> >>> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of
> the
> >>> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control,
> >>> Intelligence).
> >>>
> >>> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which
> >>> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.  It
> involved
> >>> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships,
> and
> >>> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence
> >>> organizations, etc.   That's what drove our thinking and decisions.
> >>>
> >>> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.
> >>> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.
> PRNet
> >>> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?   All of that was a driver for
> >>> research efforts.
> >>>
> >>> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were
> >>> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research
> >>> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven)
> >>> Internet.
> >>>
> >>> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects
> >>> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into
> another.   I
> >>> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing
> the
> >>> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.   So I
> >>> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".   I'm curious
> how
> >>> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the
> >>> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational
> >>> systems.   But I've not run across much written about that aspect of
> >>> Internet History.
> >>>
> >>> /Jack Haverty
> >>>
> >>> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN
> >>> supplied the network.
> >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI.
> Since
> >>> I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the
> >>> early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know?
> >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until
> >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
> >>>
> >>> v
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone
> of
> >>>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of
> >>>> the Internet.  Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite
> IMP),
> >>>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for
> MATNET.
> >>>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl
> >>>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time.
> >>>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the
> >>>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.   This was part of ARPA's
> "technology
> >>>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending
> >>>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund
> >>>> continued research.
> >>>>
> >>>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.   But I do recall that
> >>>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
> >>>> investigating that.   IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a
> way
> >>>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.   Ken
> >>>> Pogran may remember more.
> >>>>
> >>>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with
> >>>> the Navy projects.  I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been
> a
> >>>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology
> >>>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
> >>>> conditions).   Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
> >>>>
> >>>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the
> >>>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories.
> >>>>
> >>>> /Jack Haverty
> >>>>
> >>>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>> was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember)
> >>>> and
> >>>>> MATNET (which I do remember)?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> v
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history
> <
> >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
> >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number
> >>>>>>> assignment.  It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We
> had a
> >>>>>>> project called  Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP
> >>>>>>> networking when ships were under emission control.  In 1984, I
> gave a
> >>>>>>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group
> >>>> Meeting
> >>>>>>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).  I don't remember us
> >>>> asking
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may
> >>>> have
> >>>>>>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada
> >>>> implementation of
> >>>>>>> the gateway at that point in time.  I don't think we had the EMCON
> >>>>>> details
> >>>>>>> worked out yet.  The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on
> short
> >>>>>> notice
> >>>>>>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
> >>>>>>> barbara
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hey Barbara:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a
> >>>> new
> >>>>>> employee at BBN in 1983.  The job on the BBN side was to figure out
> if
> >>>>>> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard
> >>>> command
> >>>>>> centers.  As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP
> >>>> working
> >>>>>> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to
> something
> >>>> else,
> >>>>>> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on
> the
> >>>> 80MB
> >>>>>> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.  Rick Adams at Seismo also had a
> >>>> Proteon
> >>>>>> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.  And I swapped email
> >>>> for the
> >>>>>> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another
> >>>>>> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted
> >>>> that
> >>>>>> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire
> >>>> feature
> >>>>>> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel
> >>>>>> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest
> >>>>>> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to
> >>>> run on
> >>>>>> it).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> *****
> >>>>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> mailing lists.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
>