[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)
Jack Haverty
jack at 3kitty.org
Thu Dec 24 14:42:14 PST 2020
Yes, that all agrees with my recollections. Barry took over just about
the time I was moved away from the research side.
When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service
mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were
functioning only for tests. Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be
"operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for
keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the
NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues. So IMHO
SATNET was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user
community was the Europeans.
A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world
end-user deployments. That was the target of the "pipeline" from
research to the field. ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN.
The Internet gateways also made that journey.
AFAIK, nothing else did. SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the
projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about.
During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the
SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications
between terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits. That was
applicable in situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where
the embassy might be in a country where regular phone lines were
compromised.
When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming
up, so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down
the pipeline. So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field.
/Jack
On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote:
> Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could
> have told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my
> portfolio after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(.
>
> Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was
> SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and
> the other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET.
>
> v
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org
> <mailto:jack at 3kitty.org>> wrote:
>
> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
>
> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in
> the early 80s. For a year or two they were two if the Internet
> projects under my responsibility at BBN.
>
> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed
> 24x7 by the NOC at BBN. That occurred after the gateway project
> (Ginny Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob
> Hinden et al) with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational
> and reliable as a service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
>
> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the
> Carl Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability
> to use satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea. So it
> was functional only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
>
> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.
> Instead of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al
> in PRNets, MATNET nodes were onboard ships. Both were still in
> the "research" stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were
> considered "operational" at the time.
>
> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces
> of the military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications,
> Command, Control, Intelligence).
>
> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario
> which we then used as a target for developing Internet
> technology. It involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al,
> communicating with sailors in ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed
> locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence organizations, etc.
> That's what drove our thinking and decisions.
>
> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the
> DDN. SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy
> communications. PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?
> All of that was a driver for research efforts.
>
> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions
> were illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring
> research results into operational use, i.e., to create the
> (military-driven) Internet.
>
> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy"
> projects into one part of the organization, and the "operational"
> into another. I ended up in the "operational" side, being more
> interested in bringing the technology into wide usage than in
> creating more new technology. So I lost track of the researchy
> projects and the "pipeline". I'm curious how that pipeline
> progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the research
> efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational
> systems. But I've not run across much written about that aspect
> of Internet History.
>
> /Jack Haverty
>
> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail.
>> BBN supplied the network.
>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at
>> CNRI. Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten
>> its start in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack
>> H, do you know?
>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying
>> until October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>
>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a
>> ship-based clone of
>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core"
>> networks of
>> the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for
>> Satellite IMP),
>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
>>
>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money)
>> for MATNET.
>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier
>> USS Carl
>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at
>> the time.
>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even
>> brought the
>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's
>> "technology
>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism,
>> sending
>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy
>> to fund
>> continued research.
>>
>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do
>> recall that
>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
>> investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to
>> provide a way
>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET
>> node. Ken
>> Pogran may remember more.
>>
>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost
>> contact with
>> the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may
>> have been a
>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet
>> technology
>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
>> conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
>>
>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on
>> to the
>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our
>> memories.
>>
>> /Jack Haverty
>>
>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not
>> remember) and
>> > MATNET (which I do remember)?
>> >
>> > v
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via
>> Internet-history <
>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via
>> Internet-history <
>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON
>> protocol number
>> >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the
>> Navy. We had a
>> >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to
>> support TCP/IP
>> >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In
>> 1984, I gave a
>> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest
>> Group Meeting
>> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't
>> remember us asking
>> >> for
>> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if
>> Jon may have
>> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada
>> implementation of
>> >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had
>> the EMCON
>> >> details
>> >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly
>> and on short
>> >> notice
>> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
>> >>> barbara
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Hey Barbara:
>> >>
>> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first
>> project as a new
>> >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to
>> figure out if
>> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for
>> shipboard command
>> >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and
>> got TCP/IP working
>> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned
>> to something else,
>> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP
>> working on the 80MB
>> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo
>> also had a Proteon
>> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I
>> swapped email for the
>> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using
>> another
>> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its
>> comments noted that
>> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and
>> catch fire feature
>> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened)
>> and Noel
>> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had
>> the fastest
>> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing
>> much to run on
>> >> it).
>> >>
>> >> Craig
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society
>> activities and
>> >> mailing lists.
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>> >
>> >
>>
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>
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