[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)

[vinton cerf]

Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have
told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my portfolio
after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(.

Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was SATNET
except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and the other
European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET.

v


On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:

> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
>
> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early
> 80s.  For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my
> responsibility at BBN.
>
> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the
> NOC at BBN.   That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et
> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to
> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following
> in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
>
> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl Vinson
> (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use
> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.  So it was functional
> only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
>
> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.  Instead
> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets,
> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.  Both were still in the "research" stage,
> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the
> time.
>
> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the
> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control,
> Intelligence).
>
> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which we
> then used as a target for developing Internet technology.  It involved
> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and
> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence
> organizations, etc.   That's what drove our thinking and decisions.
>
> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.
> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.  PRNet
> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?   All of that was a driver for
> research efforts.
>
> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were
> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research
> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven)
> Internet.
>
> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects
> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.   I
> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the
> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.   So I
> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".   I'm curious how
> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the
> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational
> systems.   But I've not run across much written about that aspect of
> Internet History.
>
> /Jack Haverty
>
> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>
> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN
> supplied the network.
> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since I
> remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the early
> 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know?
> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until
> October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
>
> v
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of
>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of
>> the Internet.  Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP),
>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
>>
>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET.
>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl
>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time.
>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the
>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.   This was part of ARPA's "technology
>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending
>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund
>> continued research.
>>
>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.   But I do recall that
>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
>> investigating that.   IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way
>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.   Ken
>> Pogran may remember more.
>>
>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with
>> the Navy projects.  I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a
>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology
>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
>> conditions).   Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
>>
>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the
>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories.
>>
>> /Jack Haverty
>>
>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and
>> > MATNET (which I do remember)?
>> >
>> > v
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history <
>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number
>> >>> assignment.  It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a
>> >>> project called  Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP
>> >>> networking when ships were under emission control.  In 1984, I gave a
>> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group
>> Meeting
>> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).  I don't remember us asking
>> >> for
>> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have
>> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation
>> of
>> >>> the gateway at that point in time.  I don't think we had the EMCON
>> >> details
>> >>> worked out yet.  The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short
>> >> notice
>> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
>> >>> barbara
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Hey Barbara:
>> >>
>> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new
>> >> employee at BBN in 1983.  The job on the BBN side was to figure out if
>> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard
>> command
>> >> centers.  As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP
>> working
>> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something
>> else,
>> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the
>> 80MB
>> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.  Rick Adams at Seismo also had a
>> Proteon
>> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.  And I swapped email
>> for the
>> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another
>> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted
>> that
>> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire
>> feature
>> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel
>> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest
>> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run
>> on
>> >> it).
>> >>
>> >> Craig
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> *****
>> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>> >> mailing lists.
>> >> --
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>> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
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>
>