[ih] vint's 3 piece suits (was: Internet-history Digest, Vol 11, Issue 2)
Steve Crocker
steve at shinkuro.com
Sat Aug 8 14:21:19 PDT 2020
We keep separate beards :)
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 5:19 PM, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com> wrote:
>
> More fundamentally, when did Steve's beard migrate to Vint? :-)
> Best,
>
> Olivier
>
> On 08/08/2020 22:11, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote:
>> indeed, that article has some great photos... most notably of which was
>> (younger) vint cerf wearing... a 3 piece suit!
>>
>> so yours truly intrepidly is curious to know:
>>
>> - did vint also sport 3 piece suits in high school?
>> - when did vint start wearing 2 piece suits?
>> - has anyone on this list ever seen vint NOT in a 3 piece suit?
>>
>> sincerely in the interest of a complete Internet History,
>>
>> geoff
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 3:41 AM Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That article has some great photos!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:46 PM Jay Hauben via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>> Might you want to send this link to Sage?
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:50 PM <internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>
>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era Protocol: The
>>>>> Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>>> (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
>>>>> 2. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Jack Haverty)
>>>>> 3. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Vint Cerf)
>>>>> 4. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Dave Crocker)
>>>>> 5. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Dave Crocker)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:52:56 -1000
>>>>> From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <geoff at iconia.com>
>>>>> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>> Subject: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <
>>>>> CAEf-zrix+kVN-0OEPEqLZJbKLqLSH97rhZDSSNYMpTCxVXJBZg at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>>>
>>>>> *The RFC may be the ARPANET?s most enduring legacy*
>>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>>
>>>>> Each March, July, and November, we are reminded that the Internet is
>>> not
>>>>> quite the mature, stable technology that it seems to be. We rely on the
>>>>> Internet as an essential tool for our economic, social, educational,
>>> and
>>>>> political lives. But when the Internet Engineering Task Force
>>>>> <https://ietf.org/> meets every four months at an open conference that
>>>>> bounces from continent to continent, more than 1,000 people from around
>>>> the
>>>>> world gather with change on their minds. Their vision of the global
>>>> network
>>>>> that all humanity shares is dynamic, evolving, and continuously
>>>> improving.
>>>>> Their efforts combine with the contributions of myriad others to ensure
>>>>> that the Internet always works but is never done, never complete.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rapid yet orderly evolution of the Internet is all the more
>>>> remarkable
>>>>> considering the highly unusual way it happens: without a company, a
>>>>> government, or a board of directors in charge. Nothing about digital
>>>>> communications technology suggests that it should be self-organizing
>>> or,
>>>>> for that matter, fundamentally reliable. We enjoy an Internet that is
>>>> both
>>>>> of those at once because multiple generations of network developers
>>> have
>>>>> embraced a principle and a process that have been quite rare in the
>>>> history
>>>>> of technology. The principle is that the protocols that govern how
>>>>> Internet-connected devices communicate should be open, expandable, and
>>>>> robust. And the process that invents and refines those protocols
>>> demands
>>>>> collaboration and a large degree of consensus among all who care to
>>>>> participate.
>>>>>
>>>>> As someone who was part of the small team that very deliberately
>>> adopted
>>>> a
>>>>> collaborative, consensus-based process to develop protocols for the
>>>> ARPANET
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET>?predecessor to the Internet?I
>>>> have
>>>>> been pleasantly surprised by how those ideas have persisted and
>>>> succeeded,
>>>>> even as the physical network has evolved from 50-kilobit-per-second
>>>>> telephone lines in the mid-1960s to the fiber-optic, 5G, and satellite
>>>>> links we enjoy today. Though our team certainly never envisioned
>>>>> unforgeable ?privacy passes
>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-privacy-pass/>? or unique
>>>>> identifiers
>>>>> for Internet-connected drones
>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/drip/about/>?two proposed
>>> protocols
>>>>> discussed at the task force meeting this past March?we did circulate
>>> our
>>>>> ideas for the ARPANET as technical memos among a far-flung group of
>>>>> computer scientists, collecting feedback and settling on solutions in
>>>> much
>>>>> the same way as today, albeit at a much smaller scale.
>>>>>
>>>>> We called each of those early memos a ?Request for Comments? or RFC.
>>>>> Whatever networked device you use today, it almost certainly follows
>>>> rules
>>>>> laid down in ARPANET RFCs written decades ago, probably including
>>>> protocols
>>>>> for sending plain ASCII text (RFC 20
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20.html>, issued in 1969), audio or
>>>> video
>>>>> data streams (RFC 768 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc768.html>,
>>> 1980),
>>>>> and
>>>>> Post Office Protocol, or POP, email (RFC 918
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918.html>, 1984).
>>>>>
>>>>> *Anatomy of an RFC*...
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>>> --
>>>>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>>>>> living as The Truth is True
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:12:35 -0700
>>>>> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
>>>>> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>>> Message-ID: <2599cd97-c21a-11c6-49d3-cf874fefdaaa at 3kitty.org>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Geoff, interesting article...
>>>>>
>>>>> While the RFC has been enduring, I've always wondered -- where are all
>>>>> the Comments in response to those thousands of RFCs that Requested
>>>> them???
>>>>> Is there some "form" site somewhere where each RFC appears when
>>>>> published and has a "Comments" section to collect and preserve the
>>>>> Comments.?? That kind of thing is pervasive today on all sorts of news
>>>>> sites, blogs, etc.?? But IMHO the RFCs have somehow always been
>>> ignoring
>>>>> the Cs they Request.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recall writing only several RFCs, but comments typically came back
>>> via
>>>>> email discussions. ? Sometimes for years.? I fear most of that aspect
>>> of
>>>>> Internet History, the comments and discussions, has been lost. ? I
>>>>> wonder if the long-standing "technology" of RFCs needs a Version 2,
>>>>> which captures and preserves the Comments just as it has done for
>>>>> decades with the Requests.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I should write an RFC about that........
>>>>>
>>>>> /Jack
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/20 2:52 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>> Internet-history
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> *The RFC may be the ARPANET?s most enduring legacy*
>>>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Each March, July, and November, we are reminded that the Internet is
>>>> not
>>>>>> quite the mature, stable technology that it seems to be. We rely on
>>> the
>>>>>> Internet as an essential tool for our economic, social, educational,
>>>> and
>>>>>> political lives. But when the Internet Engineering Task Force
>>>>>> <https://ietf.org/> meets every four months at an open conference
>>> that
>>>>>> bounces from continent to continent, more than 1,000 people from
>>> around
>>>>> the
>>>>>> world gather with change on their minds. Their vision of the global
>>>>> network
>>>>>> that all humanity shares is dynamic, evolving, and continuously
>>>>> improving.
>>>>>> Their efforts combine with the contributions of myriad others to
>>> ensure
>>>>>> that the Internet always works but is never done, never complete.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rapid yet orderly evolution of the Internet is all the more
>>>>> remarkable
>>>>>> considering the highly unusual way it happens: without a company, a
>>>>>> government, or a board of directors in charge. Nothing about digital
>>>>>> communications technology suggests that it should be self-organizing
>>>> or,
>>>>>> for that matter, fundamentally reliable. We enjoy an Internet that is
>>>>> both
>>>>>> of those at once because multiple generations of network developers
>>>> have
>>>>>> embraced a principle and a process that have been quite rare in the
>>>>> history
>>>>>> of technology. The principle is that the protocols that govern how
>>>>>> Internet-connected devices communicate should be open, expandable,
>>> and
>>>>>> robust. And the process that invents and refines those protocols
>>>> demands
>>>>>> collaboration and a large degree of consensus among all who care to
>>>>>> participate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As someone who was part of the small team that very deliberately
>>>> adopted
>>>>> a
>>>>>> collaborative, consensus-based process to develop protocols for the
>>>>> ARPANET
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET>?predecessor to the
>>> Internet?I
>>>>> have
>>>>>> been pleasantly surprised by how those ideas have persisted and
>>>>> succeeded,
>>>>>> even as the physical network has evolved from 50-kilobit-per-second
>>>>>> telephone lines in the mid-1960s to the fiber-optic, 5G, and
>>> satellite
>>>>>> links we enjoy today. Though our team certainly never envisioned
>>>>>> unforgeable ?privacy passes
>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-privacy-pass/>? or unique
>>>>> identifiers
>>>>>> for Internet-connected drones
>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/drip/about/>?two proposed
>>>> protocols
>>>>>> discussed at the task force meeting this past March?we did circulate
>>>> our
>>>>>> ideas for the ARPANET as technical memos among a far-flung group of
>>>>>> computer scientists, collecting feedback and settling on solutions in
>>>>> much
>>>>>> the same way as today, albeit at a much smaller scale.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We called each of those early memos a ?Request for Comments? or RFC.
>>>>>> Whatever networked device you use today, it almost certainly follows
>>>>> rules
>>>>>> laid down in ARPANET RFCs written decades ago, probably including
>>>>> protocols
>>>>>> for sending plain ASCII text (RFC 20
>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20.html>, issued in 1969), audio or
>>>>> video
>>>>>> data streams (RFC 768 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc768.html>,
>>>> 1980),
>>>>> and
>>>>>> Post Office Protocol, or POP, email (RFC 918
>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918.html>, 1984).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Anatomy of an RFC*...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:16:03 -0400
>>>>> From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
>>>>> To: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
>>>>> Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history"
>>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> <
>>>>> CAHxHgge71u5br6S1PAngRRuM6Het9o3wGZi_GdinGcGw6itz5g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>
>>>>> early on, the comments came back as RFCs. Then came email so less of
>>> the
>>>>> conversation was captured in RFCs.
>>>>> then came Internet Drafts which highlighted conversation again.
>>>>> v
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:12 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Geoff, interesting article...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the RFC has been enduring, I've always wondered -- where are
>>> all
>>>>>> the Comments in response to those thousands of RFCs that Requested
>>>> them?
>>>>>> Is there some "form" site somewhere where each RFC appears when
>>>>>> published and has a "Comments" section to collect and preserve the
>>>>>> Comments. That kind of thing is pervasive today on all sorts of
>>> news
>>>>>> sites, blogs, etc. But IMHO the RFCs have somehow always been
>>>> ignoring
>>>>>> the Cs they Request.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recall writing only several RFCs, but comments typically came back
>>>> via
>>>>>> email discussions. Sometimes for years. I fear most of that aspect
>>>> of
>>>>>> Internet History, the comments and discussions, has been lost. I
>>>>>> wonder if the long-standing "technology" of RFCs needs a Version 2,
>>>>>> which captures and preserves the Comments just as it has done for
>>>>>> decades with the Requests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess I should write an RFC about that........
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Jack
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/7/20 2:52 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>>> Internet-history
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> *The RFC may be the ARPANET?s most enduring legacy*
>>>>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Each March, July, and November, we are reminded that the Internet
>>> is
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> quite the mature, stable technology that it seems to be. We rely on
>>>> the
>>>>>>> Internet as an essential tool for our economic, social,
>>> educational,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> political lives. But when the Internet Engineering Task Force
>>>>>>> <https://ietf.org/> meets every four months at an open conference
>>>> that
>>>>>>> bounces from continent to continent, more than 1,000 people from
>>>> around
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> world gather with change on their minds. Their vision of the global
>>>>>> network
>>>>>>> that all humanity shares is dynamic, evolving, and continuously
>>>>>> improving.
>>>>>>> Their efforts combine with the contributions of myriad others to
>>>> ensure
>>>>>>> that the Internet always works but is never done, never complete.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The rapid yet orderly evolution of the Internet is all the more
>>>>>> remarkable
>>>>>>> considering the highly unusual way it happens: without a company, a
>>>>>>> government, or a board of directors in charge. Nothing about
>>> digital
>>>>>>> communications technology suggests that it should be
>>> self-organizing
>>>>> or,
>>>>>>> for that matter, fundamentally reliable. We enjoy an Internet that
>>> is
>>>>>> both
>>>>>>> of those at once because multiple generations of network developers
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> embraced a principle and a process that have been quite rare in the
>>>>>> history
>>>>>>> of technology. The principle is that the protocols that govern how
>>>>>>> Internet-connected devices communicate should be open, expandable,
>>>> and
>>>>>>> robust. And the process that invents and refines those protocols
>>>>> demands
>>>>>>> collaboration and a large degree of consensus among all who care to
>>>>>>> participate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As someone who was part of the small team that very deliberately
>>>>> adopted
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> collaborative, consensus-based process to develop protocols for the
>>>>>> ARPANET
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET>?predecessor to the
>>>> Internet?I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> been pleasantly surprised by how those ideas have persisted and
>>>>>> succeeded,
>>>>>>> even as the physical network has evolved from 50-kilobit-per-second
>>>>>>> telephone lines in the mid-1960s to the fiber-optic, 5G, and
>>>> satellite
>>>>>>> links we enjoy today. Though our team certainly never envisioned
>>>>>>> unforgeable ?privacy passes
>>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-privacy-pass/>? or unique
>>>>>> identifiers
>>>>>>> for Internet-connected drones
>>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/drip/about/>?two proposed
>>>>> protocols
>>>>>>> discussed at the task force meeting this past March?we did
>>> circulate
>>>>> our
>>>>>>> ideas for the ARPANET as technical memos among a far-flung group of
>>>>>>> computer scientists, collecting feedback and settling on solutions
>>> in
>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> the same way as today, albeit at a much smaller scale.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We called each of those early memos a ?Request for Comments? or
>>> RFC.
>>>>>>> Whatever networked device you use today, it almost certainly
>>> follows
>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>> laid down in ARPANET RFCs written decades ago, probably including
>>>>>> protocols
>>>>>>> for sending plain ASCII text (RFC 20
>>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20.html>, issued in 1969), audio
>>> or
>>>>>> video
>>>>>>> data streams (RFC 768 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc768.html>,
>>>>> 1980),
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Post Office Protocol, or POP, email (RFC 918
>>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918.html>, 1984).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Anatomy of an RFC*...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> new postal address:
>>>>> Google, LLC
>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400
>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:40:17 -0700
>>>>> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
>>>>> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>>> Message-ID: <f01b1abb-e6ca-4505-0e27-c76bb66269c9 at dcrocker.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/2020 3:12 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> While the RFC has been enduring, I've always wondered -- where are
>>> all
>>>>>> the Comments in response to those thousands of RFCs that Requested
>>>> them?
>>>>>> Is there some "form" site somewhere where each RFC appears when
>>>>>> published and has a "Comments" section to collect and preserve the
>>>>>> Comments.?? That kind of thing is pervasive today on all sorts of
>>> news
>>>>>> sites, blogs, etc.?? But IMHO the RFCs have somehow always been
>>>> ignoring
>>>>>> the Cs they Request.
>>>>>
>>>>> emails, internet-drafts, web pages, meeting presentations and
>>>>> recordings, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is excellent archiving of the RFCs, but there has been no
>>> interest
>>>>> historical retention of of the surrounding mass of supporting work
>>>>> product. It seems that folk think the usual 'backups' are sufficient...
>>>>>
>>>>> d/
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dave Crocker
>>>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>>> bbiw.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:49:39 -0700
>>>>> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
>>>>> Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history"
>>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>>> Message-ID: <e7800b82-30f0-6db2-a738-d26387e02843 at dcrocker.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/2020 3:16 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> then came Internet Drafts which highlighted conversation again.
>>>>> Even I-Ds tend to be used in a more formal way, now, making them more
>>>>> representative of RFC development snapshots than of comment indicators,
>>>>> which are handled in email and meetings.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is, occasionally, an I-D done as a comment on other work -- with
>>>>> no intent for RFC publication -- but that's extremely rare.
>>>>>
>>>>> d/
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dave Crocker
>>>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>>> bbiw.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 11, Issue 2
>>>>> ***********************************************
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>>
>
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