[ih] vint's 3 piece suits
Miles Fidelman
mfidelman at meetinghouse.net
Sat Aug 8 16:17:41 PDT 2020
Even more notable - a young Vint Cerf - with no beard! Next to a young
Steve Crocker, with a very big beard. The caption indicates it was
taken at UCLA in 1968.
Miles
On 8/8/20 4:11 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
wrote:
> indeed, that article has some great photos... most notably of which was
> (younger) vint cerf wearing... a 3 piece suit!
>
> so yours truly intrepidly is curious to know:
>
> - did vint also sport 3 piece suits in high school?
> - when did vint start wearing 2 piece suits?
> - has anyone on this list ever seen vint NOT in a 3 piece suit?
>
> sincerely in the interest of a complete Internet History,
>
> geoff
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 3:41 AM Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> That article has some great photos!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:46 PM Jay Hauben via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>> Might you want to send this link to Sage?
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:50 PM <internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era Protocol: The
>>>> Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>> (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
>>>> 2. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Jack Haverty)
>>>> 3. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Vint Cerf)
>>>> 4. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Dave Crocker)
>>>> 5. Re: Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker) (Dave Crocker)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:52:56 -1000
>>>> From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <geoff at iconia.com>
>>>> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>> Subject: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <
>>>> CAEf-zrix+kVN-0OEPEqLZJbKLqLSH97rhZDSSNYMpTCxVXJBZg at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>>
>>>> *The RFC may be the ARPANET?s most enduring legacy*
>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>
>>>> Each March, July, and November, we are reminded that the Internet is
>> not
>>>> quite the mature, stable technology that it seems to be. We rely on the
>>>> Internet as an essential tool for our economic, social, educational,
>> and
>>>> political lives. But when the Internet Engineering Task Force
>>>> <https://ietf.org/> meets every four months at an open conference that
>>>> bounces from continent to continent, more than 1,000 people from around
>>> the
>>>> world gather with change on their minds. Their vision of the global
>>> network
>>>> that all humanity shares is dynamic, evolving, and continuously
>>> improving.
>>>> Their efforts combine with the contributions of myriad others to ensure
>>>> that the Internet always works but is never done, never complete.
>>>>
>>>> The rapid yet orderly evolution of the Internet is all the more
>>> remarkable
>>>> considering the highly unusual way it happens: without a company, a
>>>> government, or a board of directors in charge. Nothing about digital
>>>> communications technology suggests that it should be self-organizing
>> or,
>>>> for that matter, fundamentally reliable. We enjoy an Internet that is
>>> both
>>>> of those at once because multiple generations of network developers
>> have
>>>> embraced a principle and a process that have been quite rare in the
>>> history
>>>> of technology. The principle is that the protocols that govern how
>>>> Internet-connected devices communicate should be open, expandable, and
>>>> robust. And the process that invents and refines those protocols
>> demands
>>>> collaboration and a large degree of consensus among all who care to
>>>> participate.
>>>>
>>>> As someone who was part of the small team that very deliberately
>> adopted
>>> a
>>>> collaborative, consensus-based process to develop protocols for the
>>> ARPANET
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET>?predecessor to the Internet?I
>>> have
>>>> been pleasantly surprised by how those ideas have persisted and
>>> succeeded,
>>>> even as the physical network has evolved from 50-kilobit-per-second
>>>> telephone lines in the mid-1960s to the fiber-optic, 5G, and satellite
>>>> links we enjoy today. Though our team certainly never envisioned
>>>> unforgeable ?privacy passes
>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-privacy-pass/>? or unique
>>>> identifiers
>>>> for Internet-connected drones
>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/drip/about/>?two proposed
>> protocols
>>>> discussed at the task force meeting this past March?we did circulate
>> our
>>>> ideas for the ARPANET as technical memos among a far-flung group of
>>>> computer scientists, collecting feedback and settling on solutions in
>>> much
>>>> the same way as today, albeit at a much smaller scale.
>>>>
>>>> We called each of those early memos a ?Request for Comments? or RFC.
>>>> Whatever networked device you use today, it almost certainly follows
>>> rules
>>>> laid down in ARPANET RFCs written decades ago, probably including
>>> protocols
>>>> for sending plain ASCII text (RFC 20
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20.html>, issued in 1969), audio or
>>> video
>>>> data streams (RFC 768 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc768.html>,
>> 1980),
>>>> and
>>>> Post Office Protocol, or POP, email (RFC 918
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918.html>, 1984).
>>>>
>>>> *Anatomy of an RFC*...
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>> --
>>>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>>>> living as The Truth is True
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:12:35 -0700
>>>> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
>>>> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>> Message-ID: <2599cd97-c21a-11c6-49d3-cf874fefdaaa at 3kitty.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Geoff, interesting article...
>>>>
>>>> While the RFC has been enduring, I've always wondered -- where are all
>>>> the Comments in response to those thousands of RFCs that Requested
>>> them???
>>>> Is there some "form" site somewhere where each RFC appears when
>>>> published and has a "Comments" section to collect and preserve the
>>>> Comments.?? That kind of thing is pervasive today on all sorts of news
>>>> sites, blogs, etc.?? But IMHO the RFCs have somehow always been
>> ignoring
>>>> the Cs they Request.
>>>>
>>>> I recall writing only several RFCs, but comments typically came back
>> via
>>>> email discussions. ? Sometimes for years.? I fear most of that aspect
>> of
>>>> Internet History, the comments and discussions, has been lost. ? I
>>>> wonder if the long-standing "technology" of RFCs needs a Version 2,
>>>> which captures and preserves the Comments just as it has done for
>>>> decades with the Requests.
>>>>
>>>> I guess I should write an RFC about that........
>>>>
>>>> /Jack
>>>>
>>>> On 8/7/20 2:52 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> Internet-history
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> *The RFC may be the ARPANET?s most enduring legacy*
>>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>>
>>>>> Each March, July, and November, we are reminded that the Internet is
>>> not
>>>>> quite the mature, stable technology that it seems to be. We rely on
>> the
>>>>> Internet as an essential tool for our economic, social, educational,
>>> and
>>>>> political lives. But when the Internet Engineering Task Force
>>>>> <https://ietf.org/> meets every four months at an open conference
>> that
>>>>> bounces from continent to continent, more than 1,000 people from
>> around
>>>> the
>>>>> world gather with change on their minds. Their vision of the global
>>>> network
>>>>> that all humanity shares is dynamic, evolving, and continuously
>>>> improving.
>>>>> Their efforts combine with the contributions of myriad others to
>> ensure
>>>>> that the Internet always works but is never done, never complete.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rapid yet orderly evolution of the Internet is all the more
>>>> remarkable
>>>>> considering the highly unusual way it happens: without a company, a
>>>>> government, or a board of directors in charge. Nothing about digital
>>>>> communications technology suggests that it should be self-organizing
>>> or,
>>>>> for that matter, fundamentally reliable. We enjoy an Internet that is
>>>> both
>>>>> of those at once because multiple generations of network developers
>>> have
>>>>> embraced a principle and a process that have been quite rare in the
>>>> history
>>>>> of technology. The principle is that the protocols that govern how
>>>>> Internet-connected devices communicate should be open, expandable,
>> and
>>>>> robust. And the process that invents and refines those protocols
>>> demands
>>>>> collaboration and a large degree of consensus among all who care to
>>>>> participate.
>>>>>
>>>>> As someone who was part of the small team that very deliberately
>>> adopted
>>>> a
>>>>> collaborative, consensus-based process to develop protocols for the
>>>> ARPANET
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET>?predecessor to the
>> Internet?I
>>>> have
>>>>> been pleasantly surprised by how those ideas have persisted and
>>>> succeeded,
>>>>> even as the physical network has evolved from 50-kilobit-per-second
>>>>> telephone lines in the mid-1960s to the fiber-optic, 5G, and
>> satellite
>>>>> links we enjoy today. Though our team certainly never envisioned
>>>>> unforgeable ?privacy passes
>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-privacy-pass/>? or unique
>>>> identifiers
>>>>> for Internet-connected drones
>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/drip/about/>?two proposed
>>> protocols
>>>>> discussed at the task force meeting this past March?we did circulate
>>> our
>>>>> ideas for the ARPANET as technical memos among a far-flung group of
>>>>> computer scientists, collecting feedback and settling on solutions in
>>>> much
>>>>> the same way as today, albeit at a much smaller scale.
>>>>>
>>>>> We called each of those early memos a ?Request for Comments? or RFC.
>>>>> Whatever networked device you use today, it almost certainly follows
>>>> rules
>>>>> laid down in ARPANET RFCs written decades ago, probably including
>>>> protocols
>>>>> for sending plain ASCII text (RFC 20
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20.html>, issued in 1969), audio or
>>>> video
>>>>> data streams (RFC 768 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc768.html>,
>>> 1980),
>>>> and
>>>>> Post Office Protocol, or POP, email (RFC 918
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918.html>, 1984).
>>>>>
>>>>> *Anatomy of an RFC*...
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:16:03 -0400
>>>> From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
>>>> To: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
>>>> Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history"
>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <
>>>> CAHxHgge71u5br6S1PAngRRuM6Het9o3wGZi_GdinGcGw6itz5g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> early on, the comments came back as RFCs. Then came email so less of
>> the
>>>> conversation was captured in RFCs.
>>>> then came Internet Drafts which highlighted conversation again.
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:12 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Geoff, interesting article...
>>>>>
>>>>> While the RFC has been enduring, I've always wondered -- where are
>> all
>>>>> the Comments in response to those thousands of RFCs that Requested
>>> them?
>>>>> Is there some "form" site somewhere where each RFC appears when
>>>>> published and has a "Comments" section to collect and preserve the
>>>>> Comments. That kind of thing is pervasive today on all sorts of
>> news
>>>>> sites, blogs, etc. But IMHO the RFCs have somehow always been
>>> ignoring
>>>>> the Cs they Request.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recall writing only several RFCs, but comments typically came back
>>> via
>>>>> email discussions. Sometimes for years. I fear most of that aspect
>>> of
>>>>> Internet History, the comments and discussions, has been lost. I
>>>>> wonder if the long-standing "technology" of RFCs needs a Version 2,
>>>>> which captures and preserves the Comments just as it has done for
>>>>> decades with the Requests.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I should write an RFC about that........
>>>>>
>>>>> /Jack
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/20 2:52 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>>> Internet-history
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> *The RFC may be the ARPANET?s most enduring legacy*
>>>>>> EXCERPT:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Each March, July, and November, we are reminded that the Internet
>> is
>>>> not
>>>>>> quite the mature, stable technology that it seems to be. We rely on
>>> the
>>>>>> Internet as an essential tool for our economic, social,
>> educational,
>>>> and
>>>>>> political lives. But when the Internet Engineering Task Force
>>>>>> <https://ietf.org/> meets every four months at an open conference
>>> that
>>>>>> bounces from continent to continent, more than 1,000 people from
>>> around
>>>>> the
>>>>>> world gather with change on their minds. Their vision of the global
>>>>> network
>>>>>> that all humanity shares is dynamic, evolving, and continuously
>>>>> improving.
>>>>>> Their efforts combine with the contributions of myriad others to
>>> ensure
>>>>>> that the Internet always works but is never done, never complete.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rapid yet orderly evolution of the Internet is all the more
>>>>> remarkable
>>>>>> considering the highly unusual way it happens: without a company, a
>>>>>> government, or a board of directors in charge. Nothing about
>> digital
>>>>>> communications technology suggests that it should be
>> self-organizing
>>>> or,
>>>>>> for that matter, fundamentally reliable. We enjoy an Internet that
>> is
>>>>> both
>>>>>> of those at once because multiple generations of network developers
>>>> have
>>>>>> embraced a principle and a process that have been quite rare in the
>>>>> history
>>>>>> of technology. The principle is that the protocols that govern how
>>>>>> Internet-connected devices communicate should be open, expandable,
>>> and
>>>>>> robust. And the process that invents and refines those protocols
>>>> demands
>>>>>> collaboration and a large degree of consensus among all who care to
>>>>>> participate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As someone who was part of the small team that very deliberately
>>>> adopted
>>>>> a
>>>>>> collaborative, consensus-based process to develop protocols for the
>>>>> ARPANET
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET>?predecessor to the
>>> Internet?I
>>>>> have
>>>>>> been pleasantly surprised by how those ideas have persisted and
>>>>> succeeded,
>>>>>> even as the physical network has evolved from 50-kilobit-per-second
>>>>>> telephone lines in the mid-1960s to the fiber-optic, 5G, and
>>> satellite
>>>>>> links we enjoy today. Though our team certainly never envisioned
>>>>>> unforgeable ?privacy passes
>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-privacy-pass/>? or unique
>>>>> identifiers
>>>>>> for Internet-connected drones
>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/drip/about/>?two proposed
>>>> protocols
>>>>>> discussed at the task force meeting this past March?we did
>> circulate
>>>> our
>>>>>> ideas for the ARPANET as technical memos among a far-flung group of
>>>>>> computer scientists, collecting feedback and settling on solutions
>> in
>>>>> much
>>>>>> the same way as today, albeit at a much smaller scale.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We called each of those early memos a ?Request for Comments? or
>> RFC.
>>>>>> Whatever networked device you use today, it almost certainly
>> follows
>>>>> rules
>>>>>> laid down in ARPANET RFCs written decades ago, probably including
>>>>> protocols
>>>>>> for sending plain ASCII text (RFC 20
>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20.html>, issued in 1969), audio
>> or
>>>>> video
>>>>>> data streams (RFC 768 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc768.html>,
>>>> 1980),
>>>>> and
>>>>>> Post Office Protocol, or POP, email (RFC 918
>>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918.html>, 1984).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Anatomy of an RFC*...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/todays-internet-still-relies-on-an-arpanetera-protocol-the-request-for-comments
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> new postal address:
>>>> Google, LLC
>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400
>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:40:17 -0700
>>>> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
>>>> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>> Message-ID: <f01b1abb-e6ca-4505-0e27-c76bb66269c9 at dcrocker.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> On 8/7/2020 3:12 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> While the RFC has been enduring, I've always wondered -- where are
>> all
>>>>> the Comments in response to those thousands of RFCs that Requested
>>> them?
>>>>> Is there some "form" site somewhere where each RFC appears when
>>>>> published and has a "Comments" section to collect and preserve the
>>>>> Comments.?? That kind of thing is pervasive today on all sorts of
>> news
>>>>> sites, blogs, etc.?? But IMHO the RFCs have somehow always been
>>> ignoring
>>>>> the Cs they Request.
>>>>
>>>> emails, internet-drafts, web pages, meeting presentations and
>>>> recordings, etc.
>>>>
>>>> There is excellent archiving of the RFCs, but there has been no
>> interest
>>>> historical retention of of the surrounding mass of supporting work
>>>> product. It seems that folk think the usual 'backups' are sufficient...
>>>>
>>>> d/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Crocker
>>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>> bbiw.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:49:39 -0700
>>>> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
>>>> Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history"
>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Today?s Internet Still Relies on an ARPANET-Era
>>>> Protocol: The Request for Comments (Steve Crocker)
>>>> Message-ID: <e7800b82-30f0-6db2-a738-d26387e02843 at dcrocker.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> On 8/7/2020 3:16 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> then came Internet Drafts which highlighted conversation again.
>>>> Even I-Ds tend to be used in a more formal way, now, making them more
>>>> representative of RFC development snapshots than of comment indicators,
>>>> which are handled in email and meetings.
>>>>
>>>> There is, occasionally, an I-D done as a comment on other work -- with
>>>> no intent for RFC publication -- but that's extremely rare.
>>>>
>>>> d/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Crocker
>>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>> bbiw.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 11, Issue 2
>>>> ***********************************************
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>>
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
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