[ih] Internet History Lives on the Internet?

Mon Feb 25 08:56:43 PST 2019

Stone tablets & well-buried papyrus scrolls seem to be the most 
persistent storage we have, yet.

Miles

On 2/24/19 4:28 PM, Richard Bennett wrote:
> This government will not last forever, but it will be replaced by 
> another and another…but yes, sometimes governments do burn all the 
> books and paper certainly doesn’t last all that long. Only typewriter 
> fonts and ASCII art are permanent.
>
>> On Feb 24, 2019, at 2:15 PM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net 
>> <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> For the timescales we need, we need something that lasts longer than 
>> even governments. In some of my other research, I am handling 
>> documents that are 400-800 years old. (Some work with even older 
>> stuff.) We can’t assume even governments will last that long.
>>
>> John
>>
>>> On Feb 24, 2019, at 15:09, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com 
>>> <mailto:richard at bennett.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It’s probably most reliable to pass a bill appropriating some money 
>>> to the Lib. of Congress to host something like the Internet Archive 
>>> database. Volunteer efforts always have a limited lifespan but 
>>> government is forever.
>>>
>>> RB
>>>
>>>> On Feb 24, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Miles Fidelman 
>>>> <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net <mailto:mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The whole question of persistent storage remains an unsolved problem.
>>>>
>>>> There have been models of distributed publication - like oceanstore 
>>>> and
>>>> publius (huge, distributed hash tables) - but they tend to fall 
>>>> down if
>>>> lots of people don't keep maintaining disk space.
>>>>
>>>> I keep thinking of the notion of a federation of storage providers 
>>>> where
>>>> one pays once for either a block of replicated storage, or for
>>>> publication of a file/document. These days, a 1TB disk costs $100
>>>> (retail) - so 10cents/GB.  Multiply by 5 for replicated copies, and
>>>> assume a 2-year disk life, and we're talking 25cents/year for a Gig of
>>>> reliable storage (leaving out networking costs).  $25, at 1% interest,
>>>> would "endow" a Gig of reliable storage, "forever" (think about how we
>>>> pay for perpetual care of a gravesite.
>>>>
>>>> What's missing is a legal & accounting mechanism for handling the
>>>> money.  Folks pay to self-publish an e-book - it sure would be nice to
>>>> be able pay, say $50, once, to make a document available for the 
>>>> life of
>>>> the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> Miles
>>>>
>>>> On 2/24/19 1:39 PM, Jack Haverty wrote:
>>>>> [Changed the subject line]
>>>>>
>>>>> I read the recent messages on the forum just before going to 
>>>>> sleep, and
>>>>> then I had a dream....literally.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a whole different perspective on Internet History that 
>>>>> might be
>>>>> very revealing.  Instead of questions like "Who built the Internet?",
>>>>> perhaps also ask "Who paid for the Internet?"  If historians "followed
>>>>> the money" like many other investigators, they might find some
>>>>> interesting insights.  I didn't realize until today that the IETF is
>>>>> funded by ... Me!   Through my payments for my .org domain, maybe 
>>>>> by now
>>>>> I've paid for an urn or two of coffee at an IETF meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> But my dream was of how to fund some kind of Internet repository of
>>>>> historical materials, not subject to the management whims or financial
>>>>> success of an "institution".   My dream reminded me that such 
>>>>> mechanisms
>>>>> already exist, have been running at scale for years, are self-funded,
>>>>> and seem essentially impossible to excise even when governments or
>>>>> industry giants try to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> My dream is of a Benevolent BotNet (apologies to my alma mater, BBN).
>>>>> Instead of hosting and propagating malware and viruses, or stealing
>>>>> computer cycle to mine cryptocurrency, the BBN would simply store,
>>>>> replicate, and distribute historical materials on demand. No doubt
>>>>> Richard's comment on Pirate Bay triggered this part of the dream.
>>>>>
>>>>> Such technology obviously exists, and survives despite serious efforts
>>>>> to eradicate it.  Where the Internet was coopted for evil, perhaps the
>>>>> evil could be coopted for good?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe even better would be a mechanism that didn't rely on theft and
>>>>> subterfuge at all.  Perhaps something akin to the SETI mechanisms, 
>>>>> where
>>>>> people voluntarily donate their computer resources to analyze radio
>>>>> signals, by simply downloading a piece of code and allowing it to 
>>>>> run on
>>>>> their computers.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, my dream was that some new software appears, which is freely
>>>>> downloaded by thousands or millions of people around the world, which
>>>>> uses a few GB of the disk on their machines, and stores historical
>>>>> material in a redundant, highly survivable, persistent, distrubuted
>>>>> historical warehouse.   One, or many, search engines (go Google!, 
>>>>> Bing!,
>>>>> DuckDuckGo!) would allow people to find material in the warehouse.
>>>>> Anyone could contribute material to the historical archive by simply
>>>>> placing a copy into the disk area of their machine that they've 
>>>>> shared,
>>>>> from where it would be automatically distributed and replicated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps this is one or more apps that can be downloaded.  Or perhaps a
>>>>> plug in or extension to popular browsers.  Or maybe an addition to
>>>>> existing mechanisms like BitTorrent.  Much of the code already exists,
>>>>> as evidenced by the millions of computers unwittingly 
>>>>> participating in a
>>>>> Botnet, or willingly running code like SETI.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave's offer of disk space is just the start.  I suspect many people
>>>>> would contribute some unused chunk of their computers and network
>>>>> capacity.  I have a few Terabytes on my NAS that are empty...you
>>>>> probably do too.   With enough participants, the BBN becomes
>>>>> self-suficient even as people come and go.
>>>>>
>>>>> All it would seem to take is for someone to sit down and write the
>>>>> code....in the classic Internet spirit of Rough Consensus and 
>>>>> Running Code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave....?
>>>>>
>>>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/24/19 7:42 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>>> Joe Touch <touch at strayalpha.com <mailto:touch at strayalpha.com>> 
>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 23, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org 
>>>>>>> <mailto:jack at 3kitty.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     But "internet-history at postel.org 
>>>>>>> <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>", and others like it, even RFC
>>>>>>>     repositories, likely exist at the whim of their sponsor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed - even assuming volunteers run them - they’re’s still the 
>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>> of hosting and net access.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have old repositories (end2end-interest, for one) that even 
>>>>>>> the ISOC
>>>>>>> has declined to host (even though the E2E-RG originated there).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then again, if you want to see the worst of “free riders”, go attend
>>>>>>> an IETF. Companies send armies there for free training and free
>>>>>>> consulting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS - speaking as list admin, if anyone wants to offer a place to 
>>>>>>> host
>>>>>>> this list more reliably and archivally, please do let me know 
>>>>>>> (contact
>>>>>>> me directly off-list).
>>>>>> My email list server currently lives on linode in the cloud. The 
>>>>>> cost is
>>>>>> $5/month for 25GB of SSD storage. ( https://www.linode.com/pricing
>>>>>> ). Has IPv6 and IPv4. It's paid for via a patreon donation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not like I'm using much of that box - or the bandwidth 
>>>>>> available -
>>>>>> how big are these archives?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't mind sharing that existing list server, but I long ago
>>>>>> switched to violating whatever RFC it was that said starttls was a
>>>>>> "should" - to *mandate* starttls only - which cuts down on spam (and
>>>>>> sigh, about 13% of my measured potential correspondents, still). The
>>>>>> biggest administrative cost I'd had was dealing with spam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If that's not an acceptable policy for these lists/archives, well, go
>>>>>> burn the 5 bucks/mo on yer own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______
>>>>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>>>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for 
>>>>>>> assistance.
>>>>> _______
>>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for 
>>>>> assistance.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>>
>>>> _______
>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for 
>>>> assistance.
>>>
>>> —
>>> Richard Bennett
>>> High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
>>> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>>>
>>> Internet Policy Consultant
>>>
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
>
> —
> Richard Bennett
> High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org> Founder
> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>
> Internet Policy Consultant
>
-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190225/0293848b/attachment.htm>