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<p>Stone tablets & well-buried papyrus scrolls seem to be the
most persistent storage we have, yet.</p>
<p>Miles<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/19 4:28 PM, Richard Bennett
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:90C2AEDB-EF75-4F06-8AA2-1E44C85B47EC@bennett.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
This government will not last forever, but it will be replaced by
another and another…but yes, sometimes governments do burn all the
books and paper certainly doesn’t last all that long. Only
typewriter fonts and ASCII art are permanent.
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 24, 2019, at 2:15 PM, John Day <<a
href="mailto:jeanjour@comcast.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jeanjour@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">For the
timescales we need, we need something that lasts longer
than even governments. In some of my other research, I
am handling documents that are 400-800 years old. (Some
work with even older stuff.) We can’t assume even
governments will last that long.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">John<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 24, 2019, at 15:09, Richard
Bennett <<a href="mailto:richard@bennett.com"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">richard@bennett.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">It’s probably
most reliable to pass a bill appropriating
some money to the Lib. of Congress to host
something like the Internet Archive database.
Volunteer efforts always have a limited
lifespan but government is forever.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">RB<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 24, 2019, at 12:36
PM, Miles Fidelman <<a
href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">The whole question of
persistent storage remains an
unsolved problem.<br class="">
<br class="">
There have been models of
distributed publication - like
oceanstore and <br class="">
publius (huge, distributed hash
tables) - but they tend to fall down
if <br class="">
lots of people don't keep
maintaining disk space.<br class="">
<br class="">
I keep thinking of the notion of a
federation of storage providers
where <br class="">
one pays once for either a block of
replicated storage, or for <br
class="">
publication of a file/document.
These days, a 1TB disk costs $100 <br
class="">
(retail) - so 10cents/GB. Multiply
by 5 for replicated copies, and <br
class="">
assume a 2-year disk life, and we're
talking 25cents/year for a Gig of <br
class="">
reliable storage (leaving out
networking costs). $25, at 1%
interest, <br class="">
would "endow" a Gig of reliable
storage, "forever" (think about how
we <br class="">
pay for perpetual care of a
gravesite.<br class="">
<br class="">
What's missing is a legal &
accounting mechanism for handling
the <br class="">
money. Folks pay to self-publish an
e-book - it sure would be nice to <br
class="">
be able pay, say $50, once, to make
a document available for the life of
<br class="">
the Internet.<br class="">
<br class="">
Miles<br class="">
<br class="">
On 2/24/19 1:39 PM, Jack Haverty
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">[Changed
the subject line]<br class="">
<br class="">
I read the recent messages on the
forum just before going to sleep,
and<br class="">
then I had a dream....literally.<br
class="">
<br class="">
There's a whole different
perspective on Internet History
that might be<br class="">
very revealing. Instead of
questions like "Who built the
Internet?",<br class="">
perhaps also ask "Who paid for the
Internet?" If historians
"followed<br class="">
the money" like many other
investigators, they might find
some<br class="">
interesting insights. I didn't
realize until today that the IETF
is<br class="">
funded by ... Me! Through my
payments for my .org domain, maybe
by now<br class="">
I've paid for an urn or two of
coffee at an IETF meeting.<br
class="">
<br class="">
But my dream was of how to fund
some kind of Internet repository
of<br class="">
historical materials, not subject
to the management whims or
financial<br class="">
success of an "institution". My
dream reminded me that such
mechanisms<br class="">
already exist, have been running
at scale for years, are
self-funded,<br class="">
and seem essentially impossible to
excise even when governments or<br
class="">
industry giants try to do so.<br
class="">
<br class="">
My dream is of a Benevolent BotNet
(apologies to my alma mater, BBN).<br
class="">
Instead of hosting and propagating
malware and viruses, or stealing<br
class="">
computer cycle to mine
cryptocurrency, the BBN would
simply store,<br class="">
replicate, and distribute
historical materials on demand.
No doubt<br class="">
Richard's comment on Pirate Bay
triggered this part of the dream.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Such technology obviously exists,
and survives despite serious
efforts<br class="">
to eradicate it. Where the
Internet was coopted for evil,
perhaps the<br class="">
evil could be coopted for good?<br
class="">
<br class="">
Maybe even better would be a
mechanism that didn't rely on
theft and<br class="">
subterfuge at all. Perhaps
something akin to the SETI
mechanisms, where<br class="">
people voluntarily donate their
computer resources to analyze
radio<br class="">
signals, by simply downloading a
piece of code and allowing it to
run on<br class="">
their computers.<br class="">
<br class="">
So, my dream was that some new
software appears, which is freely<br
class="">
downloaded by thousands or
millions of people around the
world, which<br class="">
uses a few GB of the disk on their
machines, and stores historical<br
class="">
material in a redundant, highly
survivable, persistent,
distrubuted<br class="">
historical warehouse. One, or
many, search engines (go Google!,
Bing!,<br class="">
DuckDuckGo!) would allow people to
find material in the warehouse.<br
class="">
Anyone could contribute material
to the historical archive by
simply<br class="">
placing a copy into the disk area
of their machine that they've
shared,<br class="">
from where it would be
automatically distributed and
replicated.<br class="">
<br class="">
Perhaps this is one or more apps
that can be downloaded. Or
perhaps a<br class="">
plug in or extension to popular
browsers. Or maybe an addition to<br
class="">
existing mechanisms like
BitTorrent. Much of the code
already exists,<br class="">
as evidenced by the millions of
computers unwittingly
participating in a<br class="">
Botnet, or willingly running code
like SETI.<br class="">
<br class="">
Dave's offer of disk space is just
the start. I suspect many people<br
class="">
would contribute some unused chunk
of their computers and network<br
class="">
capacity. I have a few Terabytes
on my NAS that are empty...you<br
class="">
probably do too. With enough
participants, the BBN becomes<br
class="">
self-suficient even as people come
and go.<br class="">
<br class="">
All it would seem to take is for
someone to sit down and write the<br
class="">
code....in the classic Internet
spirit of Rough Consensus and
Running Code.<br class="">
<br class="">
Dave....?<br class="">
<br class="">
/Jack Haverty<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On 2/24/19 7:42 AM, Dave Taht
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Joe
Touch <<a
href="mailto:touch@strayalpha.com"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">touch@strayalpha.com</a>>
writes:<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On
Feb 23, 2019, at 12:42 PM,
Jack Haverty <<a
href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jack@3kitty.org</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
But "<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a>",
and others like it, even RFC<br
class="">
repositories, likely exist
at the whim of their sponsor.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Indeed - even assuming
volunteers run them -
they’re’s still the issue<br
class="">
of hosting and net access.<br
class="">
<br class="">
I have old repositories
(end2end-interest, for one)
that even the ISOC<br class="">
has declined to host (even
though the E2E-RG originated
there).<br class="">
<br class="">
Then again, if you want to see
the worst of “free riders”, go
attend<br class="">
an IETF. Companies send armies
there for free training and
free<br class="">
consulting.<br class="">
<br class="">
PS - speaking as list admin,
if anyone wants to offer a
place to host<br class="">
this list more reliably and
archivally, please do let me
know (contact<br class="">
me directly off-list).<br
class="">
</blockquote>
My email list server currently
lives on linode in the cloud.
The cost is<br class="">
$5/month for 25GB of SSD
storage. ( <a
href="https://www.linode.com/pricing"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.linode.com/pricing</a><br
class="">
). Has IPv6 and IPv4. It's paid
for via a patreon donation.<br
class="">
<br class="">
It's not like I'm using much of
that box - or the bandwidth
available -<br class="">
how big are these archives?<br
class="">
<br class="">
I wouldn't mind sharing that
existing list server, but I long
ago<br class="">
switched to violating whatever
RFC it was that said starttls
was a<br class="">
"should" - to *mandate* starttls
only - which cuts down on spam
(and<br class="">
sigh, about 13% of my measured
potential correspondents,
still). The<br class="">
biggest administrative cost I'd
had was dealing with spam.<br
class="">
<br class="">
If that's not an acceptable
policy for these lists/archives,
well, go<br class="">
burn the 5 bucks/mo on yer own.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Joe<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br
class="">
<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br
class="">
<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
In theory, there is no difference
between theory and practice.<br
class="">
In practice, there is. .... Yogi
Berra<br class="">
<br class="">
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br
class="">
<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">—<br
class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">Richard
Bennett<br class="">
<a href="http://hightechforum.org/"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">High
Tech Forum</a> Founder</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">Ethernet
& Wi-Fi standards co-creator</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">Internet
Policy Consultant</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">—<br
class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Richard
Bennett<br class="">
<a href="http://hightechforum.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">High Tech Forum</a> Founder</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Ethernet
& Wi-Fi standards co-creator</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Internet
Policy Consultant</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra</pre>
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