[ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 33

Wed Aug 31 10:25:17 PDT 2016

AX.25 was based on X.25 and was used at slow (300-1200baud) speeds over 
HF radio.

On 31/08/16 17:17, Barbara Denny wrote:
> I believe you are thinking of a different packet radio.  There was one
> by the radio community that used AX.25.  Packet radio was an ARPA/DARPA
> effort that developed its own suite of protocols that were improved over
> time. These protocols were usually referred to as CAP followed by a
> version number (e.g. CAP 6).  If my memory isn't faulty,  CAP stood for
> Channel Access Protocol.  It was a MANET.
>
> The August demo did show off the use of the Internet transport. My
> memory of what I have been told in the past agrees with what Craig
> mentioned: The development of the DARPA packet radio network (PRnet) was
> a motivator for TCP.   I would have to check with others to see about
> the timing of the distinct layering as I joined the packet radio project
> later.  BTW, I am using the phrase Internet transport deliberately. I
> chatted with Don Nielson recently about the Guardian article and he used
> that phrase for the demo.
>
> barbara
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* "internet-history-request at postel.org"
> <internet-history-request at postel.org>
> *To:* internet-history at postel.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2016 7:26 AM
> *Subject:* internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 33
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30 (Craig Partridge)
>   2. Re: internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30 (Dave Crocker)
>   3. Re: internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30
>       (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
>   4. Re: internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30
>       (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 09:50:48 -0400
> From: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com <mailto:craig at aland.bbn.com>>
> Subject: Re: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30
> To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com <mailto:ocl at gih.com>>
> Cc: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com <mailto:craig at aland.bbn.com>>,
>     "internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>"
> <internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>>,
> Barbara
>     Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com <mailto:b_a_denny at yahoo.com>>
> Message-ID: <14316BEF-D99C-4F91-8182-6FC0B08DF31A at aland.bbn.com
> <mailto:14316BEF-D99C-4F91-8182-6FC0B08DF31A at aland.bbn.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Hi Olivier:
>
> What the article hints at, but doesn?t quite say, is that TCP was the
> answer to a question, namely how to do we link packet radio networks
> (and some other
> types of networks) to a network like ARPANET?
>
> As I recall the story (I arrived on the scene later), Bob Kahn was in
> the process of funding Packet Radio Networks and he and Vint needed to
> solve the
> interconnection problem and that motivated the TCP paper.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Craig
>
> PS: Footnote ? originally TCP contained both TCP and what we now call
> IP.  IP was made a standalone protocol after a hallway debate in (I
> believe) 1977.
>
>
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:33 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com
> <mailto:ocl at gih.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31/08/2016 05:13, Barbara Denny wrote:
>>> For those interested, here is another article related to the Packet
> Radio/ARPANET August Internet demo.  BTW, the SFgate article didn't make
> it clear that another packet radio located at Stanford was used to reach
> SRI.  The November 1977 demo also added a satellite, SATNET,  to make it
> a 3 network test.
>>>
>>> barbara
>>>
>>> How the internet was invented
> <https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/15/how-the-internet-was-invented-1976-arpa-kahn-cerf?CMP=share_btn_link>
>>
>> Thanks for this link. The mentioning of packet radio raised my
> interest and I was not aware of the Stanford experiments. Yet I am
> somehow puzzled as packet radio used AX.25. Thus whilst I understand the
> packet transmission of data was proven, is packet radio really that
> closely related to TCP/IP?
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for
> assistance.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 07:17:36 -0700
> From: Dave Crocker <dhc2 at dcrocker.net <mailto:dhc2 at dcrocker.net>>
> Subject: Re: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30
> To: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com
> <mailto:craig at aland.bbn.com>>,    Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
>     <ocl at gih.com <mailto:ocl at gih.com>>
> Cc: "internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>"
> <internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>>,
>     Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com <mailto:b_a_denny at yahoo.com>>
> Message-ID: <c38b1b19-eb0c-0ce4-13a4-ea9ca129dfe0 at dcrocker.net
> <mailto:c38b1b19-eb0c-0ce4-13a4-ea9ca129dfe0 at dcrocker.net>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 8/31/2016 6:50 AM, Craig Partridge wrote:
>> As I recall the story (I arrived on the scene later), Bob Kahn was in
>> the process of funding Packet Radio Networks and he and Vint needed to
>> solve the
>> interconnection problem and that motivated the TCP paper.
>
>
> This is a variant of the broader problem statement I was used to hearing:
>
>       Even by 1972 there already were a variety of independent networks
> around the world.  How to interconnect them, since it was unlikely that
> they would all agree to switch over to someone else's network protocols.
>
>       TCP was developed as an overlay that would run on all of them,
> connecting them.
>
> d/
>
> --
>
>   Dave Crocker
>   Brandenburg InternetWorking
>   bbiw.net
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 16:22:50 +0200
> From: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com <mailto:ocl at gih.com>>
> Subject: Re: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30
> To: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com <mailto:craig at aland.bbn.com>>
> Cc: "internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>"
> <internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>>,
>     Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com <mailto:b_a_denny at yahoo.com>>
> Message-ID: <52bcdc97-12fb-8f01-64df-e99cb55024a4 at gih.com
> <mailto:52bcdc97-12fb-8f01-64df-e99cb55024a4 at gih.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear Craig,
>
> thanks, that's helpful. I've learnt something today. :-)
>
> Now I am aware of the AMPR's work (nicely summarised on
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMPRNet
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMPRNet>). It hints at TCP/IP & a non
> routeable Class A being allocated to the AMPR network, with some people
> using NAT to carry traffic across -- but was that really done on a
> larger scale? I recall regulatory issues at the time, where Packet Radio
> was seen as a broadcast medium & you needed your radio license to
> operate a TNC. Thus whilst it was legally possible to send out an email
> to the Internet from a Packet Radio node, as you held a license to do
> so, it was deemed illegal to receive your emails from the Internet to
> your TNC - as the sender did not hold a radio license. I am speaking of
> 1989 so 10+ years later than Bob Kahn's work.
> Is the restriction still in place now?
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> On 31/08/2016 15:50, Craig Partridge wrote:
>> Hi Olivier:
>>
>> What the article hints at, but doesn?t quite say, is that TCP was the
>> answer to a question, namely how to do we link packet radio networks
>> (and some other
>> types of networks) to a network like ARPANET?
>>
>> As I recall the story (I arrived on the scene later), Bob Kahn was in
>> the process of funding Packet Radio Networks and he and Vint needed to
>> solve the
>> interconnection problem and that motivated the TCP paper.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> PS: Footnote ? originally TCP contained both TCP and what we now call
>> IP.  IP was made a standalone protocol after a hallway debate in (I
>> believe) 1977.
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:33 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com
> <mailto:ocl at gih.com>
>>> <mailto:ocl at gih.com <mailto:ocl at gih.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31/08/2016 05:13, Barbara Denny wrote:
>>>> For those interested, here is another article related to the Packet
>>>> Radio/ARPANET August Internet demo.  BTW, the SFgate article didn't
>>>> make it clear that another packet radio located at Stanford was used
>>>> to reach SRI.  The November 1977 demo also added a satellite,
>>>> SATNET,  to make it a 3 network test.
>>>>
>>>> barbara
>>>>
>>>> How the internet was invented
>>>>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/15/how-the-internet-was-invented-1976-arpa-kahn-cerf?CMP=share_btn_link>
>>>
>>> Thanks for this link. The mentioning of packet radio raised my
>>> interest and I was not aware of the Stanford experiments. Yet I am
>>> somehow puzzled as packet radio used AX.25. Thus whilst I understand
>>> the packet transmission of data was proven, is packet radio really
>>> that closely related to TCP/IP?
>>> Kindest regards,
>>>
>>> Olivier
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
> <mailto:internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>>
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for
> assistance.
>>
>
> --
> Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
> http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 15:26:17 +0100
> From: Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.NA <mailto:el at lisse.NA>>
> Subject: Re: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 30
> To: craig at aland.bbn.com <mailto:craig at aland.bbn.com>, ocl at gih.com
> <mailto:ocl at gih.com>
> Cc: internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>,
> b_a_denny at yahoo.com <mailto:b_a_denny at yahoo.com>, el at lisse.NA
> <mailto:el at lisse.NA>
> Message-ID: <9bbb4cfc-b714-e5a7-4d94-aa1f1369e654 at lisse.NA
> <mailto:9bbb4cfc-b714-e5a7-4d94-aa1f1369e654 at lisse.NA>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Ah,
>
> I remember fondly when they used to have a routing for North America
> which made their addresses look like something.NA and that then
> bounced up and down UUCP over the telephone line a few times.
>
> greetings, el
>
> On 2016-08-31 14:50, Craig Partridge wrote:
>> Hi Olivier:
>>
>> What the article hints at, but doesn?t quite say, is that TCP was
>> the answer to a question, namely how to do we link packet radio
>> networks (and some other types of networks) to a network like
>> ARPANET?
>>
>> As I recall the story (I arrived on the scene later), Bob Kahn was
>> in the process of funding Packet Radio Networks and he and Vint
>> needed to solve the interconnection problem and that motivated the
>> TCP paper.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> PS: Footnote ? originally TCP contained both TCP and what we now call
>> IP.  IP was made a standalone protocol after a hallway debate in (I
>> believe) 1977.
> [...]
> --
> Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse  \        / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar)
> el at lisse.NA <mailto:el at lisse.NA>            / *    |  Telephone: +264 81
> 124 6733 (cell)
> PO Box 8421            \    /
> Bachbrecht, Namibia    ;____/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of internet-history Digest, Vol 105, Issue 33
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