[ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 82, Issue 14

Thu Sep 17 03:07:31 PDT 2026

Back in the 80s BBN sold several C/30 and C/300-based X.25 networks to
British banks. In 1987 or 1988, as I recall, I spent several weeks in the
UK for customer and support staff training on the network and equipment for
the Abbey National Bank (since purchased by Santander). After that trip I
wasn't allowed to donate blood because I might have ingested prions from
British beef.

Cheers,
Andy

On Thu, Sep 17, 2026 at 5:25 AM John Nolan via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> John,
>
> I may have mentioned in the past that we used BBN C300 and C30s within our
> private bank network (Nat West).  We also used X.25 interfaces!
>
> Nothing to do with me as I left NatWest and BT took over responsibility.  I
> understand that they quietly absorbed the existing packet switches into
> their network.
>
> John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> On
> Behalf
> Of internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
> Sent: 17 September 2026 06:41
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Internet-history Digest, Vol 82, Issue 14
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: How long did it take? (John Day)
>    2. Re: How long did it take? (Dave Crocker)
>    3. Re: How long did it take? (Brian E Carpenter)
>    4. Re: How long did it take? (Miles Fidelman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2026 22:16:56 -0400
> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> To: Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu>
> Cc: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <geoff at iconia.com>,
>         Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
> Message-ID: <84F3CB5A-5826-4E7A-A53F-3D0E70CE2CE8 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Whoa! Why am I not surprised. Incredible.
>
>  Really a good thing Baran didn?t take them up on their offer to build one.
>
> If the X.25 service came out in 83, they must have decided it was important
> a few years earlier. 1980-ish?
>
> A billion dollar loss. Wow! And that was when a billion dollars was real
> money.
>
> > On Sep 16, 2026, at 20:33, Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
> >
> > ATT struggled to launch a packet switched service which they finally
> offered in 1983 as the ACS Net 1000 service. This was nearly 14 years after
> the Arpanet was launched and still they screwed it up. It was a clumsy
> expensive service and they thought they could offer storage and computation
> to the fortune 1000 community, something they did not need. They shut it
> down in 1984 at $1 billion loss.
> > Len
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >> On Sep 16, 2026, at 5:06?PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?Grok sez:
> >>
> >> AT&T operated X.25 packet-switched networks in the 1980s.
> >>
> >> The main one was ACCUNET Packet Service, a public data network that
> >> AT&T launched as a regulated basic service. The FCC tariff took
> >> effect 18 August 1984. By 1986 it had 99 service points in the U.S.
> >> Subscriber interfaces followed CCITT X.25 (1980 recommendation, with
> >> a later move toward the 1984 version). It offered switched virtual
> >> calls and permanent virtual circuits over access lines at 4.8, 9.6,
> >> and 56 kbps (via Dataphone Digital Service or analog private lines).
> >> Nodes were interconnected with 56 kbps DDS facilities.
> >>
> >> AT&T also ran a separate value-added X.25 service called Net 1000
> >> (AIS*Net
> >> 1000) through its unregulated subsidiary (American Bell / AT&T
> >> Information Systems). That offering added protocol conversion,
> >> processing, and storage on top of an underlying X.25 packet network
> >> supplied by the regulated side of AT&T. It was withdrawn in 1986 after
> large losses.
> >>
> >> After the 1984 breakup, the long-distance AT&T entity continued
> >> ACCUNET Packet Service while the Regional Bell Operating Companies
> >> offered their own intra-LATA X.25 packet services (some of those
> >> RBOCs later became part of today?s AT&T). Bell Labs also did
> >> packet-switching research and built systems such as LADT that used X.25
> internally.
> >>
> >> AT&T was late to commercial packet switching compared with Telenet
> >> and Tymnet, but it did own and operate X.25 networks once it entered the
> market.
> >>
> >> ??https://x.com/i/grok?conversation=2100374688069489036
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2026 at 4:07?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In the 60s, Baran backed out of an offer from AT&T to build a packet
> >>> switched network because he sensed wisely they didn?t believe in it
> >>> and would not put the effort into to make it real.
> >>>
> >>> We also all know the story from the ARPANET demo at ICCC72 when Bob
> >>> Metcalfe was demoing the TIP to several AT&T attendees. The TIP
> >>> crashed and re-booted from its neighbors. Bob thought this was a
> >>> great aspect of the system. The AT&T guys thought it showed the
> >>> ARPANET was a joke and not serious.
> >>>
> >>> So when did AT&T start to take packet switching seriously?
> >>>
> >>> Take care,
> >>> John
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>> -
> >>> Unsubscribe:
> >>> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?T
> >>> he%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> >> living as The Truth is True
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >> -
> >> Unsubscribe:
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> >> e%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 02:59:01 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
> Message-ID: <7ba3946a-e2fd-4140-a9c1-4fdeb6382b4c at dcrocker.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>
> > If the X.25 service came out in 83
>
>
> It came out earlier than that.? In the NSF meeting that produced CSNet,
> circa 1981, there was general awareness that X.25 was already commercially
> deployed.? Most folk thought the proffered services were like the Arpanet's
> host-host packet service and were quite surprised to hear the, really, what
> was being sold for customers was X.28/X.29 -- ie, telnet.
>
> The initial email-based dial-up CSNet service was the fallback, for initial
> operation.
>
> I don't know when 'raw' X.25 became a viable commercial service. Perhaps
> that what the above 1983 date meant?
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
>
> dhc at dcrocker.net
> bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
> mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
> +1.408.329.0791 <(408)%20329-0791>
>
> Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
> Northern California Coastal Region
> Information & Planning Coordinator
> American Red Cross
> dave.crocker2 at redcross.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 17:39:27 +1200
> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
> To: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>, Internet-history
>         <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
> Message-ID: <25f2f25c-9450-4138-853b-172d43cb38d2 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> DATAPAC "opened for use in 1976 as the world's first public data network
> designed specifically for X.25." [Wikipedia]
>
> Canada won, thanks to Peter Cashin and his experience at NPL under Donald
> Davies. DATAPAC was definitely first in the world, before PSS (Packet
> Switch
> Stream) was operational in the UK.
>
> Regards/Ng? mihi
>     Brian
>
> On 17-Sep-26 14:59, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> >
> >> If the X.25 service came out in 83
> >
> >
> > It came out earlier than that.? In the NSF meeting that produced
> > CSNet, circa 1981, there was general awareness that X.25 was already
> > commercially deployed.? Most folk thought the proffered services were
> > like the Arpanet's host-host packet service and were quite surprised
> > to hear the, really, what was being sold for customers was X.28/X.29
> > -- ie, telnet.
> >
> > The initial email-based dial-up CSNet service was the fallback, for
> > initial operation.
> >
> > I don't know when 'raw' X.25 became a viable commercial service.
> > Perhaps that what the above 1983 date meant?
> >
> > d/
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 05:40:48 +0000
> From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at protocoltechnologiesgroup.com>
> Cc: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
> Message-ID:
>
>
> <SA1PR12MB7038EE6EA4B74553E821BD1FB1B82 at SA1PR12MB7038.namprd12.prod.outlook.
> com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> As I recall, all the while the Bells were selling ISDN based packet
> services, they were selling frame relay services in parallel.  Frame relay
> actually worked and made sense.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> on
> behalf
> of the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2026 8:06:50 PM
> To: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Cc: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
>
> Grok sez:
>
> AT&T operated X.25 packet-switched networks in the 1980s.
>
> The main one was ACCUNET Packet Service, a public data network that AT&T
> launched as a regulated basic service. The FCC tariff took effect 18 August
> 1984. By 1986 it had 99 service points in the U.S. Subscriber interfaces
> followed CCITT X.25 (1980 recommendation, with a later move toward the 1984
> version). It offered switched virtual calls and permanent virtual circuits
> over access lines at 4.8, 9.6, and 56 kbps (via Dataphone Digital Service
> or
> analog private lines). Nodes were interconnected with 56 kbps DDS
> facilities.
>
> AT&T also ran a separate value-added X.25 service called Net 1000 (AIS*Net
> 1000) through its unregulated subsidiary (American Bell / AT&T Information
> Systems). That offering added protocol conversion, processing, and storage
> on top of an underlying X.25 packet network supplied by the regulated side
> of AT&T. It was withdrawn in 1986 after large losses.
>
> After the 1984 breakup, the long-distance AT&T entity continued ACCUNET
> Packet Service while the Regional Bell Operating Companies offered their
> own
> intra-LATA X.25 packet services (some of those RBOCs later became part of
> today?s AT&T). Bell Labs also did packet-switching research and built
> systems such as LADT that used X.25 internally.
>
> AT&T was late to commercial packet switching compared with Telenet and
> Tymnet, but it did own and operate X.25 networks once it entered the
> market.
>
> ??https://x.com/i/grok?conversation=2100374688069489036
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2026 at 4:07?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > In the 60s, Baran backed out of an offer from AT&T to build a packet
> > switched network because he sensed wisely they didn?t believe in it
> > and would not put the effort into to make it real.
> >
> > We also all know the story from the ARPANET demo at ICCC72 when Bob
> > Metcalfe was demoing the TIP to several AT&T attendees. The TIP
> > crashed and re-booted from its neighbors. Bob thought this was a great
> > aspect of the system. The AT&T guys thought it showed the ARPANET was
> > a joke and not serious.
> >
> > So when did AT&T start to take packet switching seriously?
> >
> > Take care,
> > John
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > -
> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The
> > %20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
> >
> >
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
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> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
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>
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> ------------------------------
>
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