[ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 82, Issue 14

Thu Sep 17 02:25:10 PDT 2026

John,

I may have mentioned in the past that we used BBN C300 and C30s within our
private bank network (Nat West).  We also used X.25 interfaces!  

Nothing to do with me as I left NatWest and BT took over responsibility.  I
understand that they quietly absorbed the existing packet switches into
their network.

John 
-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> On Behalf
Of internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
Sent: 17 September 2026 06:41
To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
Subject: Internet-history Digest, Vol 82, Issue 14

Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
	internet-history at elists.isoc.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: How long did it take? (John Day)
   2. Re: How long did it take? (Dave Crocker)
   3. Re: How long did it take? (Brian E Carpenter)
   4. Re: How long did it take? (Miles Fidelman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2026 22:16:56 -0400
From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
To: Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <geoff at iconia.com>,
	Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
Message-ID: <84F3CB5A-5826-4E7A-A53F-3D0E70CE2CE8 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8

Whoa! Why am I not surprised. Incredible.

 Really a good thing Baran didn?t take them up on their offer to build one.

If the X.25 service came out in 83, they must have decided it was important
a few years earlier. 1980-ish?

A billion dollar loss. Wow! And that was when a billion dollars was real
money.

> On Sep 16, 2026, at 20:33, Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> ATT struggled to launch a packet switched service which they finally
offered in 1983 as the ACS Net 1000 service. This was nearly 14 years after
the Arpanet was launched and still they screwed it up. It was a clumsy
expensive service and they thought they could offer storage and computation
to the fortune 1000 community, something they did not need. They shut it
down in 1984 at $1 billion loss.
> Len
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2026, at 5:06?PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Grok sez:
>> 
>> AT&T operated X.25 packet-switched networks in the 1980s.
>> 
>> The main one was ACCUNET Packet Service, a public data network that 
>> AT&T launched as a regulated basic service. The FCC tariff took 
>> effect 18 August 1984. By 1986 it had 99 service points in the U.S. 
>> Subscriber interfaces followed CCITT X.25 (1980 recommendation, with 
>> a later move toward the 1984 version). It offered switched virtual 
>> calls and permanent virtual circuits over access lines at 4.8, 9.6, 
>> and 56 kbps (via Dataphone Digital Service or analog private lines). 
>> Nodes were interconnected with 56 kbps DDS facilities.
>> 
>> AT&T also ran a separate value-added X.25 service called Net 1000 
>> (AIS*Net
>> 1000) through its unregulated subsidiary (American Bell / AT&T 
>> Information Systems). That offering added protocol conversion, 
>> processing, and storage on top of an underlying X.25 packet network 
>> supplied by the regulated side of AT&T. It was withdrawn in 1986 after
large losses.
>> 
>> After the 1984 breakup, the long-distance AT&T entity continued 
>> ACCUNET Packet Service while the Regional Bell Operating Companies 
>> offered their own intra-LATA X.25 packet services (some of those 
>> RBOCs later became part of today?s AT&T). Bell Labs also did 
>> packet-switching research and built systems such as LADT that used X.25
internally.
>> 
>> AT&T was late to commercial packet switching compared with Telenet 
>> and Tymnet, but it did own and operate X.25 networks once it entered the
market.
>> 
>> ??https://x.com/i/grok?conversation=2100374688069489036
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2026 at 4:07?PM John Day via Internet-history < 
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> In the 60s, Baran backed out of an offer from AT&T to build a packet 
>>> switched network because he sensed wisely they didn?t believe in it 
>>> and would not put the effort into to make it real.
>>> 
>>> We also all know the story from the ARPANET demo at ICCC72 when Bob 
>>> Metcalfe was demoing the TIP to several AT&T attendees. The TIP 
>>> crashed and re-booted from its neighbors. Bob thought this was a 
>>> great aspect of the system. The AT&T guys thought it showed the 
>>> ARPANET was a joke and not serious.
>>> 
>>> So when did AT&T start to take packet switching seriously?
>>> 
>>> Take care,
>>> John
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> -
>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?T
>>> he%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> -
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?Th
>> e%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 02:59:01 +0000 (UTC)
From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
Message-ID: <7ba3946a-e2fd-4140-a9c1-4fdeb6382b4c at dcrocker.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

> If the X.25 service came out in 83

It came out earlier than that.? In the NSF meeting that produced CSNet,
circa 1981, there was general awareness that X.25 was already commercially
deployed.? Most folk thought the proffered services were like the Arpanet's
host-host packet service and were quite surprised to hear the, really, what
was being sold for customers was X.28/X.29 -- ie, telnet.

The initial email-based dial-up CSNet service was the fallback, for initial
operation.

I don't know when 'raw' X.25 became a viable commercial service. Perhaps
that what the above 1983 date meant?

d/

--
Dave Crocker

dhc at dcrocker.net
bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
+1.408.329.0791

Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
Northern California Coastal Region
Information & Planning Coordinator
American Red Cross
dave.crocker2 at redcross.org

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 17:39:27 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
To: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>, Internet-history
	<internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
Message-ID: <25f2f25c-9450-4138-853b-172d43cb38d2 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

DATAPAC "opened for use in 1976 as the world's first public data network
designed specifically for X.25." [Wikipedia]

Canada won, thanks to Peter Cashin and his experience at NPL under Donald
Davies. DATAPAC was definitely first in the world, before PSS (Packet Switch
Stream) was operational in the UK.

Regards/Ng? mihi
    Brian

On 17-Sep-26 14:59, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> 
>> If the X.25 service came out in 83
> 
> 
> It came out earlier than that.? In the NSF meeting that produced 
> CSNet, circa 1981, there was general awareness that X.25 was already 
> commercially deployed.? Most folk thought the proffered services were 
> like the Arpanet's host-host packet service and were quite surprised 
> to hear the, really, what was being sold for customers was X.28/X.29 
> -- ie, telnet.
> 
> The initial email-based dial-up CSNet service was the fallback, for 
> initial operation.
> 
> I don't know when 'raw' X.25 became a viable commercial service. 
> Perhaps that what the above 1983 date meant?
> 
> d/
> 

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 05:40:48 +0000
From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at protocoltechnologiesgroup.com>
Cc: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

As I recall, all the while the Bells were selling ISDN based packet
services, they were selling frame relay services in parallel.  Frame relay
actually worked and made sense.

________________________________
From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> on behalf
of the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
<internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2026 8:06:50 PM
To: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
Cc: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] How long did it take?

Grok sez:

AT&T operated X.25 packet-switched networks in the 1980s.

The main one was ACCUNET Packet Service, a public data network that AT&T
launched as a regulated basic service. The FCC tariff took effect 18 August
1984. By 1986 it had 99 service points in the U.S. Subscriber interfaces
followed CCITT X.25 (1980 recommendation, with a later move toward the 1984
version). It offered switched virtual calls and permanent virtual circuits
over access lines at 4.8, 9.6, and 56 kbps (via Dataphone Digital Service or
analog private lines). Nodes were interconnected with 56 kbps DDS
facilities.

AT&T also ran a separate value-added X.25 service called Net 1000 (AIS*Net
1000) through its unregulated subsidiary (American Bell / AT&T Information
Systems). That offering added protocol conversion, processing, and storage
on top of an underlying X.25 packet network supplied by the regulated side
of AT&T. It was withdrawn in 1986 after large losses.

After the 1984 breakup, the long-distance AT&T entity continued ACCUNET
Packet Service while the Regional Bell Operating Companies offered their own
intra-LATA X.25 packet services (some of those RBOCs later became part of
today?s AT&T). Bell Labs also did packet-switching research and built
systems such as LADT that used X.25 internally.

AT&T was late to commercial packet switching compared with Telenet and
Tymnet, but it did own and operate X.25 networks once it entered the market.

??https://x.com/i/grok?conversation=2100374688069489036

On Wed, Sep 16, 2026 at 4:07?PM John Day via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> In the 60s, Baran backed out of an offer from AT&T to build a packet 
> switched network because he sensed wisely they didn?t believe in it 
> and would not put the effort into to make it real.
>
> We also all know the story from the ARPANET demo at ICCC72 when Bob 
> Metcalfe was demoing the TIP to several AT&T attendees. The TIP 
> crashed and re-booted from its neighbors. Bob thought this was a great 
> aspect of the system. The AT&T guys thought it showed the ARPANET was 
> a joke and not serious.
>
> So when did AT&T start to take packet switching seriously?
>
> Take care,
> John
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> -
> Unsubscribe:
> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The
> %20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
>
>

--
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
--
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
-
Unsubscribe:
https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20lis
t%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
-
Unsubscribe:
https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20lis
t%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history

------------------------------

End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 82, Issue 14
************************************************