[ih] Fwd: As Flag Day approaches at CMU

Sun Sep 7 06:47:07 PDT 2025

Alas. no.  I left NASA just before the TCP/IP cutoff -- they hired me as an independent contractor to update my NCP to TCP/IP just before/after the cutover.  From there I went into the startup world trying to build "the next great thing."  Fortunately one of those tries (Alteon WebSystems) went public so I retired from the networking world and joined the ranks of wannabe world explorers.  That was some 24 years ago and as I tell people, I was technically obsolete two weeks after I quit.  (For what it's worth, I'm writing this aboard a riverboat in Bordeaux at the start of a weeklong "Chateaux, Rivers, and Wine" tour.)

Anyway, it seems to me IBM never really did much with TSS, and all my code was written in 360 Assembler Language, so it really wouldn't make a lot of sense to anybody.  Although it should be available -- I wrote it for NASA as a Civil Servant -- I have no idea how to get to it.  I am pretty sure mine was the only TCP/IP stack for the ARPANET itself (ie, talking directly to an IMP), although there may well be something later than mine.

Sorry about that.  It'd be cool to see it resurrected.

wayne

On Sat, 6 Sep 2025 14:14:44 -0400, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

Awesome -- any chance you have any of that code?  The reason I ask is that you may know about Oscar Vermueln's PiPD systems —  https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence (I've been a beta site for most of these since he first started offering them).   He just finished the PDP-1 in the last few weeks.  He has been exploring creating a pIBM 360, with one of the targets being TSS (a number of us have suggested he use the 67 and its DAT unit as the two displays since they have lots of lights and the 67 can run many of the more intreresting IBM OS flavors [note, like the PiDP-10 which uses a KA10 as the console model, many people run a KL or KS emulator for the OS since things like Twenex require it.   An IBM would work the same way; later models, such as some of the 370s, can be emulated, and any "blinkenlites" will be mapped, but not historically accurate.

But one of the downsides of the IBM targets has been a lack of networking support, although that is not a reason for exclusion, as you can see with PiDP-1 or the original PiDP-8; but having networking in the hosted OS, like we have for the PiDP-11s and PiDP-10, makes them easier to use.  That said, if we can find a copy of TSS/360 that also includes an IP/TCP stack, that makes it even more attractive.

Also, besides just running the OS, Oscar has asked about applications that might be interesting.  In the case of the PiDPs, each OS offers some interesting historical applications [e.g., PDP-1 Spacewar, or many PDP-11, PDP-8, and PDP-10 hacks - often games - from back in the day]. So far, that has been a stumbling block.  York/APL is unique, as well as the original Algol-W and the Waterloo compiler suites.  But things like games we know from the IBM world are essentially stuff moved from other systems (like Advent or some of the Trek games), so they don't make the IBM world stand out.

Clem

On Sat, Sep 6, 2025 at 9:11 AM Wayne Hathaway <wayne at playaholic.com> wrote:

An IBM 360/67 running TSS was at NASA Ames Research Center at Moffett Field, CA.  It was host 16 and its IMP was an early TIP..  And i can attest that it DID have an NCP because I wrote essentially all of it! And that was followed by a TCP/IP version just slightly after the switchover date.  I don't know about CMU.

On Sat, 6 Sep 2025 08:46:39 -0400, Clem Cole via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>> The early maps show the CMU IBM 360/67 running TSS, but I was a programmer
>> in that shop.  I don't think we ever had an NCP that worked with TSS.  It
>> certainly was not on the ARPANET when I was a programmer.   However, I note
>> that later maps, the fourth port on the CMU IMP starts to show it as
>> C.mmp.  Guy Almes might remember if that was ever active.
>>
>> Clem
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2025 at 7:22 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> > IIRC, UCSB , Arpanet node #3, had an IBM 360/75 running OS/MVT.  Prior to
>> > being connected to the Arpanet they had a long-suffering attempt to add
>> > interprocess communication to operating system so two partitions could
>> > communicate with each other.  As I understand it, they never got it
>> > working.  However, when they connected the machine to the IMP, two
>> > partitions could communicate with each other by treating them as processes
>> > communicating over the Arpanet.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> > Sent by a Verified
>> >
>> > sender
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2025 at 4:34 AM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via
>> > Internet-history  wrote:
>> >
>> > > Fascinating.
>> > > I notice there's not mention of IBM VM/CMS which was the mainstay of
>> > > EARN/BITNET.
>> > >
>> > > Is it because there were no such computers on the Arpanet?
>> > > Kindest regards,
>> > >
>> > > Olivier
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 06/09/2025 04:33, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>> > > >   Oops.  Somehow a .  got inserted in the url.
>> > > > This one should work.
>> > > > https://self-issued.info/Smiley/Arpanet_Protocol_Thread.html
>> > > > barbara
>> > > >      On Friday, September 5, 2025 at 08:10:41 PM PDT, Greg Skinner via
>> > > Internet-history wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >   forwarded for Barbara
>> > > >
>> > > >> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>> > > >> From: Barbara Denny
>> > > >> To: Internet-history
>> > > >> Sent: Friday, September 5, 2025 at 07:49:12 PM PDT
>> > > >> Subject: As Flag Day approaches at CMU
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Some of you might be interested in this link.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> https://self-issued.info/S.miley/Arpanet_Protocol_Thread.html
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It covers cmu messages as flag day approaches.  They were recovered
>> > > when Jeff Baird was trying to find Scott Fahlman's smiley :-) bboard
>> > post.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The messages include when the ARPAnet  temporarily shut off  NCP twice
>> > > before flag day.  Vint, was one of those times you ????? I think I
>> > remember
>> > > you mentioned doing this but I wouldn't be surprised if I am wrong.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> barbara
>> > >
>> > > --
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