[ih] Fwd: Fw: Internet-history Digest, Vol 62, Issue 9
Alexander McKenzie
aam3sendonly at gmail.com
Fri Jan 24 18:49:30 PST 2025
For my view of what happened at the 1972 ICCC and the subsequent work of
INWG see:
http://alexmckenzie.weebly.com/inwg-and-the-conception-of-the-internet-an-eyewitness-account.html
rnet.html
Cheers,
Alex
On Friday, January 24, 2025 at 03:57:30 PM EST, John Shoch via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Vint,
Glad you could clarify some of the history on ARPA NWG vs INWG -- Alex
McKenzie did have a great collection of INWG documents (and he notes your
support in getting them digitized!):
https://alexmckenzie.weebly.com/inwg-documents.html
That initial, informal INWG meeting took place at the ICCC in Oct. 1972, as
the Arpanet was having its "coming out" party in Washington DC.
You have heard me say that I always thought this was a seminal meeting --
drawing together people working on different networks, and kicking off an
incredibly creative period of research on internetworking. [I was at PARC
at the time but, sadly, was not in DC.....]
Has anyone written up the whole story of that meeting? How it came to be?
Who attended? The sub-groups that were formed (you led one, I think)? Did
the participants, at the time, anticipate what would evolve?
Who was there, and have they written about it? What documents exist?
Or do we need to do an oral history?
Cheers,
John Shoch
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 09:28:58 -0500
From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
To: Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com>
Cc: Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu>, Noel Chiappa
<jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, internet-history at elists.isoc.org
Subject: Re: [ih] Correct name for early TCP/IP working group?
Message-ID:
<CAHxHggeMijQarW-fnLzAodG2eibJ5v6oCOT-9yY+kkMMSBMkMQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
so there were a few groups. NWG was Steve's creation and was the nexus in
which NCP, FTP, SMTP, TELNET and other Arpanet-based protocols were
developed. In 1972, an International Network Working Group (INWG) was
created and had its own set of notes called INWG Notes - these have all
been digitized thanks to Alex McKenzie (ex-BBN). Many of the same people
who worked on the Arpanet protocols also worked on the Internet Protocols
and the leads formed the Internet Configuration Control Board (ICCB) before
it was renamed the Internet Advisory Board by Barry Leiner and then
Internet Activities Board and then, with the merge with ISOC, the Internet
Architecture Board. The IETF and IRTF grew out of working groups (ten of
them more or less) of the IAB, the largest of which was IETF.
v
On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 7:07 AM <internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Correct name for early TCP/IP working group? (Noel Chiappa)
> 2. Re: Correct name for early TCP/IP working group? (Guy Almes)
> 3. Re: Correct name for early TCP/IP working group? (Steve Crocker)
> 4. Re: Correct name for early TCP/IP working group? (Vint Cerf)
> 5. Re: Correct name for early TCP/IP working group? (Dave Crocker)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:52:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: [ih] Correct name for early TCP/IP working group?
> Message-ID: <20250124135219.CA54118C0D4 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>
>
> So, what was the correct full name for the early engineering group that
met
> every couple of months to work on TCP/IP, before the IETF was set up? (I
> have
> looked for it in Jon Postel's excellent minutes of its meetings, preserved
> in
> the Internet Experiment Note series, but I havn't found it there.)
>
> I have this memory that we called it the 'Internet Working Group', but of
> course (especially in shortened form) that could be confused with the INWG
> (the 'International Network Working Group'), a different early group
> entirly.
>
> Noel
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 09:08:14 -0500
> From: Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu>
> To: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Correct name for early TCP/IP working group?
> Message-ID: <f1bd45c7-27a3-493b-8135-06f096b41a5c at tamu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi Noel,
> You were there long before I was, but I recall that, in the upper
> left corner of RFCs and Internet Drafts, we were always to put down
> "Network Working Group".
> Even though we were organized into an IETF with Working Groups, etc.,
> that old name had to be there for some reason.
> -- Guy
>
> On 1/24/25 8:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote:
> > So, what was the correct full name for the early engineering group that
> met
> > every couple of months to work on TCP/IP, before the IETF was set up? (I
> have
> > looked for it in Jon Postel's excellent minutes of its meetings,
> preserved in
> > the Internet Experiment Note series, but I havn't found it there.)
> >
> > I have this memory that we called it the 'Internet Working Group', but
of
> > course (especially in shortened form) that could be confused with the
> INWG
> > (the 'International Network Working Group'), a different early group
> entirly.
> >
> > Noel
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!
> > CmzgJn96jrPDxtRTnatHHTCBN2TAXU8BefHlcjZpgPJuRVLhYsdmbUEVlQ7NPmOnBeigt-
> > Och0cm2u9EORW6deYdkij7FA$ <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!CmzgJn96jrPDxtRTnatHHTCBN2TAXU8BefHlcjZpgPJuRVLhYsdmbUEVlQ7NPmOnBeigt-Och0cm2u9EORW6deYdkij7FA$
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 09:19:27 -0500
> From: Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com>
> To: Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu>
> Cc: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Correct name for early TCP/IP working group?
> Message-ID: <F264791F-4CB0-4446-B07F-02CDEFC5F0F1 at shinkuro.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> It had to be there because I said so :). See RFC 3.
>
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 24, 2025, at 9:08?AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?Hi Noel,
> > You were there long before I was, but I recall that, in the upper left
> corner of RFCs and Internet Drafts, we were always to put down "Network
> Working Group".
> > Even though we were organized into an IETF with Working Groups, etc.,
> that old name had to be there for some reason.
> > -- Guy
> >
> >> On 1/24/25 8:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote:
> >> So, what was the correct full name for the early engineering group that
> met
> >> every couple of months to work on TCP/IP, before the IETF was set up?
> (I have
> >> looked for it in Jon Postel's excellent minutes of its meetings,
> preserved in
> >> the Internet Experiment Note series, but I havn't found it there.)
> >> I have this memory that we called it the 'Internet Working Group', but
> of
> >> course (especially in shortened form) that could be confused with the
> INWG
> >> (the 'International Network Working Group'), a different early group
> entirly.
> >> Noel
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/
> internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!
> CmzgJn96jrPDxtRTnatHHTCBN2TAXU8BefHlcjZpgPJuRVLhYsdmbUEVlQ7NPmOnBeigt-
> Och0cm2u9EORW6deYdkij7FA$ <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!CmzgJn96jrPDxtRTnatHHTCBN2TAXU8BefHlcjZpgPJuRVLhYsdmbUEVlQ7NPmOnBeigt-Och0cm2u9EORW6deYdkij7FA$
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 09:28:58 -0500
> From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> To: Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com>
> Cc: Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu>, Noel Chiappa
> <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Correct name for early TCP/IP working group?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAHxHggeMijQarW-fnLzAodG2eibJ5v6oCOT-9yY+kkMMSBMkMQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> so there were a few groups. NWG was Steve's creation and was the nexus in
> which NCP, FTP, SMTP, TELNET and other Arpanet-based protocols were
> developed. In 1972, an International Network Working Group (INWG) was
> created and had its own set of notes called INWG Notes - these have all
> been digitized thanks to Alex McKenzie (ex-BBN). Many of the same people
> who worked on the Arpanet protocols also worked on the Internet Protocols
> and the leads formed the Internet Configuration Control Board (ICCB)
before
> it was renamed the Internet Advisory Board by Barry Leiner and then
> Internet Activities Board and then, with the merge with ISOC, the Internet
> Architecture Board. The IETF and IRTF grew out of working groups (ten of
> them more or less) of the IAB, the largest of which was IETF.
>
> v
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 9:19?AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > It had to be there because I said so :). See RFC 3.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jan 24, 2025, at 9:08?AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?Hi Noel,
> > > You were there long before I was, but I recall that, in the upper
left
> > corner of RFCs and Internet Drafts, we were always to put down "Network
> > Working Group".
> > > Even though we were organized into an IETF with Working Groups, etc.,
> > that old name had to be there for some reason.
> > > -- Guy
> > >
> > >> On 1/24/25 8:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote:
> > >> So, what was the correct full name for the early engineering group
> that
> > met
> > >> every couple of months to work on TCP/IP, before the IETF was set up?
> > (I have
> > >> looked for it in Jon Postel's excellent minutes of its meetings,
> > preserved in
> > >> the Internet Experiment Note series, but I havn't found it there.)
> > >> I have this memory that we called it the 'Internet Working Group',
but
> > of
> > >> course (especially in shortened form) that could be confused with the
> > INWG
> > >> (the 'International Network Working Group'), a different early group
> > entirly.
> > >> Noel
> > >> --
> > >> Internet-history mailing list
> > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!
> > CmzgJn96jrPDxtRTnatHHTCBN2TAXU8BefHlcjZpgPJuRVLhYsdmbUEVlQ7NPmOnBeigt-
> > Och0cm2u9EORW6deYdkij7FA$ <
> >
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!CmzgJn96jrPDxtRTnatHHTCBN2TAXU8BefHlcjZpgPJuRVLhYsdmbUEVlQ7NPmOnBeigt-Och0cm2u9EORW6deYdkij7FA$
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Internet-history mailing list
> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 15:07:30 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
> To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>, Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com>
> Cc: Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu>, Noel Chiappa
> <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Correct name for early TCP/IP working group?
> Message-ID: <b5c79d85-7fb3-40c1-a92f-78831d12cb79 at dcrocker.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 1/24/2025 6:28 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > notes called INWG Notes
>
>
> As an outsider to the effort, who was vaguely 'around', when I read
> Noel's note and before reading Vint's, INWG was the name that I thought
> of.? Count this as an informal survey result of community perception...
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
>
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
> mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 62, Issue 9
> ***********************************************
>
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