[ih] booting linux on a 4004

Tue Oct 1 23:39:50 PDT 2024

ECN seems to be helpful but congestion and flow control have not been my
expertise as should be obvious by now!!

V

On Wed, Oct 2, 2024, 01:49 Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>  Just throwing some thoughts out here ......
> I can see how this happens in a FIFO queuing world.   However a lot of
> work has gone into fair queuing starting in the late 80s.  Just wondering
> if anyone has done work utilizing fair queuing and source quench.  For
> example, I think I can see how to use fair queuing information to better
> select who to send a source quench to. At least I can see how to do it with
> Stochastic Fairness Queueing since I worked on it and I  remember a fair
> amount about how it was implemented. I wouldn't be able to provide a
> guarantee that the wrong host would never receive a source quench but the
> likelihood should be much lower.  Considering whether the use of NAT
> creates undesirable behavior is also important and I am sure there are
> probably other cases that need to be checked.
> Hum,  it might also be interesting to speculate whether this could have
> any effect on bufferbloat but I fess up I need to learn more about the work
> done in the area of bufferbloat.  I was involved with other things when
> this started to appear on my radar screen as a hot topic.  I will admit I
> wish I had done more work on possible buffering effects from implementation
> choices at the time I did work on SFQ but there were contractual
> obligations that restricted how much time I could devote to the SFQ part of
> the project.
> Just curious, ECN (Explicit Congestion Notification) is optional . Does
> anyone have any idea about its use in the Internet?
> barbara
>
>     On Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 07:10:25 PM PDT, Vint Cerf <
> vint at google.com> wrote:
>
>  One basic problem with blaming the "last packet that caused intermediate
> router congestion" is that it usually blamed the wrong source, among other
> problems. Van Jacobson was/is the guru of flow control (among others) who
> might remember more.
>
> v
>
> On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 8:50 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>  In a brief attempt to try to find some information about the early MIT
> work you mentioned, I ended up tripping on this Final Report from ISI in
> DTIC.  It does talk a fair amount about congestion control and source
> quench (plus other things that might interest people). The period of
> performance is 1987 to 1990 which is much later than I was considering in
> my earlier message.
>
> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA236542.pdf
>
> Even though the report mentions testing on DARTnet, I don't remember
> anything about this during our DARTnet meetings.  I did join the project
> after the start so perhaps the work was done before I began to participate.
> I also couldn't easily find the journal they mention as a place for
> publishing their findings. I will have more time later to see if I can
> something that covers this testing.
>
> barbara
>
>     On Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 04:37:47 PM PDT, Scott Bradner via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>  multicast is also an issue but I do not recall if that was one that Craig
> & I talked about
>
> Scott
>
> > On Oct 1, 2024, at 7:34 PM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > I remember talking with Craig Partridge (on a flight to somewhere) about
> source quench
> > during the time when 1812 was being written - I do not recall
> > the specific issues but I recall that there were more than one issue
> >
> > (if DoS was not an issue at the time, it should have been)
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >> On Oct 1, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 02-Oct-24 10:19, Michael Greenwald via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> On 10/1/24 1:11 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> Forwarded for Barbara
> >>>>
> >>>> ====
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 10:26:16 AM PDT
> >>>> I think congestion issues were discussed because I remember an ICMP
> message type called source quench (now deprecated). It was used for
> notifying a host to reduce the traffic load to a destination.  I don't
> remember hearing about any actual congestion experiments using this message
> type.
> >>> Of only academic interest: I believe that, circa 1980 +/- 1-2 years, an
> >>> advisee of either Dave Clark or Jerry Saltzer, wrote an undergraduate
> >>> thesis about the use of Source Quench for congestion control. I believe
> >>> it included some experiments (maybe all artificial, or only through
> >>> simulation).
> >>> I don't think it had much impact on the rest of the world.
> >>
> >> Source quench is discussed in detail in John Nagle's RFC 896 (dated
> 1984).
> >> A trail of breadcrumbs tells me that he has an MSCS from Stanford, so
> >> I guess he probably wasn't an MIT undergrad.
> >>
> >> Source quench was effectively deprecated by RFC 1812 (dated 1995).
> People
> >> had played around with ideas (e.g. RFC 1016) but it seems that basically
> >> it was no use.
> >>
> >> A bit more Google found this, however:
> >>
> >> "4.3. Internet Congestion Control
> >> Lixia Zhang began a study of network resource allocation techniques
> suitable for
> >> the DARPA Internet. The Internet currently has a simple technique for
> resource
> >> allocation, called "Source Quench."
> >> Simple simulations have shown that this technique is not effective, and
> this work
> >> has produced an alternative which seems considerably more workable.
> Simulation
> >> of this new technique is now being performed."
> >>
> >> [MIT LCS Progress Report to DARPA, July 1983 - June 1984, AD-A158299,
> >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA158299.pdf ]
> >>
> >> Lixia was then a grad student under Dave Clark. Of course she's at UCLA
> now. If she isn't on this list, she should be!
> >>
> >>  Brian Carpenter
>
>
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