[ih] booting linux on a 4004

Tue Oct 1 22:48:18 PDT 2024

 Just throwing some thoughts out here ......
I can see how this happens in a FIFO queuing world.   However a lot of work has gone into fair queuing starting in the late 80s.  Just wondering if anyone has done work utilizing fair queuing and source quench.  For example, I think I can see how to use fair queuing information to better select who to send a source quench to. At least I can see how to do it with Stochastic Fairness Queueing since I worked on it and I  remember a fair amount about how it was implemented. I wouldn't be able to provide a guarantee that the wrong host would never receive a source quench but the likelihood should be much lower.  Considering whether the use of NAT creates undesirable behavior is also important and I am sure there are probably other cases that need to be checked.
Hum,  it might also be interesting to speculate whether this could have any effect on bufferbloat but I fess up I need to learn more about the work done in the area of bufferbloat.  I was involved with other things when this started to appear on my radar screen as a hot topic.  I will admit I wish I had done more work on possible buffering effects from implementation choices at the time I did work on SFQ but there were contractual obligations that restricted how much time I could devote to the SFQ part of the project. 
Just curious, ECN (Explicit Congestion Notification) is optional . Does anyone have any idea about its use in the Internet?
barbara

    On Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 07:10:25 PM PDT, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:  

 One basic problem with blaming the "last packet that caused intermediate router congestion" is that it usually blamed the wrong source, among other problems. Van Jacobson was/is the guru of flow control (among others) who might remember more.

v

On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 8:50 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

 In a brief attempt to try to find some information about the early MIT work you mentioned, I ended up tripping on this Final Report from ISI in DTIC.  It does talk a fair amount about congestion control and source quench (plus other things that might interest people). The period of performance is 1987 to 1990 which is much later than I was considering in my earlier message.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA236542.pdf

Even though the report mentions testing on DARTnet, I don't remember anything about this during our DARTnet meetings.  I did join the project after the start so perhaps the work was done before I began to participate. I also couldn't easily find the journal they mention as a place for publishing their findings. I will have more time later to see if I can something that covers this testing.

barbara

    On Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 04:37:47 PM PDT, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  

 multicast is also an issue but I do not recall if that was one that Craig & I talked about

Scott

> On Oct 1, 2024, at 7:34 PM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I remember talking with Craig Partridge (on a flight to somewhere) about source quench 
> during the time when 1812 was being written - I do not recall
> the specific issues but I recall that there were more than one issue
> 
> (if DoS was not an issue at the time, it should have been)
> 
> Scott
> 
>> On Oct 1, 2024, at 6:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>> On 02-Oct-24 10:19, Michael Greenwald via Internet-history wrote:
>>> On 10/1/24 1:11 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> Forwarded for Barbara
>>>> 
>>>> ====
>>>> 
>>>> From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 10:26:16 AM PDT
>>>> I think congestion issues were discussed because I remember an ICMP message type called source quench (now deprecated). It was used for notifying a host to reduce the traffic load to a destination.  I don't remember hearing about any actual congestion experiments using this message type.
>>> Of only academic interest: I believe that, circa 1980 +/- 1-2 years, an
>>> advisee of either Dave Clark or Jerry Saltzer, wrote an undergraduate
>>> thesis about the use of Source Quench for congestion control. I believe
>>> it included some experiments (maybe all artificial, or only through
>>> simulation).
>>> I don't think it had much impact on the rest of the world.
>> 
>> Source quench is discussed in detail in John Nagle's RFC 896 (dated 1984).
>> A trail of breadcrumbs tells me that he has an MSCS from Stanford, so
>> I guess he probably wasn't an MIT undergrad.
>> 
>> Source quench was effectively deprecated by RFC 1812 (dated 1995). People
>> had played around with ideas (e.g. RFC 1016) but it seems that basically
>> it was no use.
>> 
>> A bit more Google found this, however:
>> 
>> "4.3. Internet Congestion Control
>> Lixia Zhang began a study of network resource allocation techniques suitable for
>> the DARPA Internet. The Internet currently has a simple technique for resource
>> allocation, called "Source Quench."
>> Simple simulations have shown that this technique is not effective, and this work
>> has produced an alternative which seems considerably more workable. Simulation
>> of this new technique is now being performed."
>> 
>> [MIT LCS Progress Report to DARPA, July 1983 - June 1984, AD-A158299,
>> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA158299.pdf ]
>> 
>> Lixia was then a grad student under Dave Clark. Of course she's at UCLA now. If she isn't on this list, she should be!
>> 
>>  Brian Carpenter

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