[ih] Politics behind the Internet

[Brian E Carpenter]

On 23-Jul-24 05:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
> You may or may not remember Milo Medin (later of @Home) in his role pushing
> the NASA Science Internet.
> 
> Quite the reverse of bureaucratic BS -- rather bureaucratic leverage.  My
> favorite one was c. 1990 -- Milo needed a single-mode fiber optic
> connection to carry data from NASA Ames up the peninsula to, I think,
> somewhere in Palo Alto.  Pac Bell's representatives didn't want to sell him
> one and made various comments about how T3 could meet his needs.  So Milo
> lost his patience and said something along the lines of "look, I'm the
> Federal government, and I can run my own fiber up the railroad tracks.  I'm
> giving you an opportunity to have me not do that".  PacBell caved quickly.

That is *so* Milo, made me smile.

In both DoE and NASA there were very strong DECnet communities that showed the
way to go. When those two user communities started migrating away from VAX/VMS
to Ultrix and other varieties of Unix, they created a strong pull for TCP/IP
support. At least in the DoE case, this pull was strongly coordinated with the
European (and increasingly Asian) pull from the high energy physics people.

This is how I ended up in meetings with Milo at places like Lawrence Livermore
and even NASA Goddard, iirc.

    Brian

> 
> Craig
> 
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:38 AM Bob Purvy <bpurvy at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the folks at DOE
>> & NASA, not so much.
>>
>> My point exactly. The DOE & NASA folks could have smothered it all in
>> bureaucratic BS, but they didn't.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 8:25 AM Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Purvy wrote:
>>>
>>>> The program
>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>>
>>> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
>>> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
>>> on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
>>> government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
>>> protocols, but did not.
>>>
>>> Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the
>>> folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Miles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>>>>>> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>>>>>> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
>>>>>> government projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
>>>> all
>>>>> inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science
>>>> programs in
>>>>> the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
>>>>> experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
>>>>> collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of
>>>> providing
>>>>> email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
>>>> set
>>>>> up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by
>>>> 1986,
>>>>> over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on
>>>> CSNET, to
>>>>> which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>>>>> Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the
>>>> US
>>>>> were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>>>> research
>>>>> in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
>>>>> could work.
>>>>>
>>>> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>>>> beginning.  The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>>>> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>>>> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
>>>> campus networks.  Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
>>>> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
>>>> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>>> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
>>>> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
>>>> - if only to email with potential employers.
>>>>
>>>> Barry Shein set up the World.  I started reselling TELENET services.
>>>> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>>>> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>>>> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
>>>> network).
>>>>
>>>> And it all just happened.
>>>>
>>>> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>>>> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>>>> communication & collaboration.  And now we find ourselves in today's
>>>> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>>>> values & virtues of the net.
>>>>
>>>> Sigh...
>>>>
>>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>>
>>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>
>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>
>>>
>