[ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 53, Issue 28

Sat Apr 20 20:19:29 PDT 2024

John,
Yes, Danny got it right and always included you and David Reed as champions of real time data transmissions in those early days. 
Best,
Len

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 20, 2024, at 4:53 PM, John Shoch via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Len, et al.,
> 
> A few quick comments:
> 
> The original TCP, presenting a reliable byte-stream interface, was
> certainly an appropriate model for some important early applications:
> --Telnet
> --FTP (esp. among dissimilar machine or disk architectures)
> This was the basis for V.1, V.2, and V.3.
> 
> Danny, though, was a passionate advocate that certain real-time
> applications (such as voice) did not care about reliable delivery of
> out-of-date real-time traffic.
> [I can't lay my hands on it now, but he wrote a great parable on this
> (maybe called "the butler's dilemma") -- the butler trying to deliver the
> daily newspapers to his boss, but they got delayed. He wanted to deliver
> each old paper to be sure the boss read all the news, in sequence; but he
> had to cut out today's weather and paste it on an earlier paper, because he
> did not want to deliver old weather forecasts!
> Reprinted in Danny's collection of essays, "The World According to
> Professor James A. Finnegan: A collection of entertaining essays about
> computers, life, the universe, and everything else." Available at Amazon!]
> 
> We ended up aligned with Danny on this question -- formalizing and exposing
> the underlying datagram interface -- based on our internetworking
> experience implementing Pup at PARC. There were some important
> applications and scenarios which did NOT need a reliable byte-stream, or
> which would be penalized by the overhead of establishing a connection and a
> byte stream.
> A few applications might send one packet and never even expect an answer:
> --Bug reports
> --Network management reports
> --"I'm about to crash or re-start, but here's what I know...."
> --Routing table broadcasts
> Many specialized applications only needed a simple exchange of a request
> and response packet ("connectionless services"):
> --What network am I on, and where is the gateway?
> --Time and Date server
> --Name lookup server
> --Mail check
> --Authentication server
> --Echo test
> --Routing table maintenance
> --Page-at-a-time disk access (read or write a single page)
> Having the datagram interface also made it possible to then build a
> reliable *packet*-stream (avoiding the need to process every page into
> bytes and back):
> --Disk copy among identical machines
> --FTP among machines that at least had similar disk architectures
> 
> There were many other people who contributed to the discussions that led up
> to the split of TCP into IP/TCP (Dave Reed comes to mind), and they all
> deserve credit.
> Then Vint, Jon P., and hundreds (?) of others pushed V.4 to success.....
> 
> John Shoch
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 2:40 PM <internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> > internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: early networking (Leonard Kleinrock)
> > 2. Re: early networking (Brian E Carpenter)
> > 3. Re: early networking (Bob Hinden)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 13:40:09 -0700
> > From: Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu>
> > To: Matt Mathis <matt.mathis at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu>, John Day
> > <jeanjour at comcast.net>, Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
> > Message-ID: <8F45AC88-E225-42EC-996D-ED2292BD7C67 at cs.ucla.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > In response to your excellent query "The TCP/IP split happened before my
> > time. It would be interesting to know
> > more about that event.?, I expect you know, but in case not, as far as I
> > recall, there were folks who were pushing for real-time traffic support
> > and thus to split IP from TCP early on. In particular, I recall the work
> > of Danny Cohen, et al, and his work on Network Voice Protocol (up and
> > running in 1973) and his promoting the split. For example, here is a video
> > of Danny discussing the early days and the history of real time voice.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4.
> >
> > Len
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 20, 2024, at 10:16?AM, Matt Mathis via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was answering the wrong question, but I stand by my assertion that
> > > "successive approximation" applies to all of the key concepts, and that
> > it
> > > is a false effort to anoint any particular iteration as the start of the
> > > modern Internet.
> > >
> > > In my mind the crucial event was to split TCP and IP into
> > > separate protocols, such that there was deep architectural enforcement of
> > > the hourglass and the orthogonality of the upper and lower protocol
> > > layers. This orthogonality means that the cost of maintaining M
> > > applications over N link types scales as O(M)+O(N). Half of the IETF
> > > worked up the stack, and half worked down the stack. The overlap was
> > > almost entirely about annealing the semantics of TCP/IP itself.
> > >
> > > As far as I am aware, all Internet technologies that enable applications
> > to
> > > interact with the lower layers have died, because they introduce costs
> > that
> > > scale O(M*N). It remains to be seen if L4S introduces a small enough
> > > delta where it can become part of the hourglass, (IPv6 introduced a
> > > "double neck" ... and still has not fully deployed. Its costs scale as
> > > O(2M)+O(2N) during the "transition" ).
> > >
> > > IMHO The hourglass and orthogonality of upper and lower stacks is the
> > > reason that the big I Internet crushed all competing technologies.
> > >
> > > The TCP/IP split happened before my time. It would be interesting to
> > know
> > > more about that event.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > --MM--
> > > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
> > to
> > > apply it to others.
> > > -------------------------------------------
> > > Matt Mathis (Email is best)
> > > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 4:31?AM John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:
> > jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In the early 70s, people were trying to figure out how to interwork
> > >> multiple networks of different technologies. What was the solution that
> > was
> > >> arrived at that led to the current Internet?
> > >>
> > >> I conjectured yesterday that the fundamental solution must have been in
> > >> hand by the time Cerf and Kahn published their paper.
> > >>
> > >> Are you conjecturing that the solution was gateways? and hence protocol
> > >> translation at the gateways?
> > >>
> > >> Take care,
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >> On Apr 19, 2024, at 23:57, Matt Mathis <matt.mathis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Due to a missing reply all or something, some of us never saw the
> > >> beginning of the thread. What was your precise question?
> > >>
> > >> Questions of the form "When was X invented" almost always have answers
> > >> that are successive approximations. i.e. The ideas were around for a
> > long
> > >> time, but didn't really work in the early days. The final answer ends
> > up
> > >> depending on splitting hairs on whether version N-k is "functionally the
> > >> same" and version N, but version N-k-1 is not. I don't find such
> > >> definitions very useful, but the thread connecting the historical
> > >> evolution of a concept is fascinating. e.g. the evolution of gateways
> > >> connecting networks over thousands of years is interesting. Drawing
> > the
> > >> line between between two and calling one the first modern gateway is
> > not.
> > >> That line will move as gateways continue to evolve.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> --MM--
> > >> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
> > >> to apply it to others.
> > >> -------------------------------------------
> > >> Matt Mathis (Email is best)
> > >> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:33?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> All week and still don?t have an answer to my question. That is very
> > >>> unusual for this list. ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>> So far there has been a lot of conjecture, not even hearsay, but no
> > facts.
> > >>>
> > >>> Having a few moments, I went back to look at the May 1974 paper to see
> > if
> > >>> had any clues, after all the title is "A Protocol for Packet Network
> > >>> Intercommunication.? I assume the answer was found prior to that
> > paper. Is
> > >>> that true?
> > >>>
> > >>> I found two major topics there: the early part of the paper spends time
> > >>> discussing protocol translation between networks and the rest of course
> > >>> describes the protocol that became TCP.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is one of these insight to the solution? Just trying to understand
> > what
> > >>> it was.
> > >>>
> > >>> Take care,
> > >>> John
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Apr 14, 2024, at 16:07, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:
> > jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am surprised that there was not a lively discussion of this. It is
> > >>> an honest question. It is unclear to me what precisely the solution to
> > >>> internetworking was? I don?t want to suggest anything and affect the
> > >>> answer, but I guess I could.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Take care,
> > >>>> John
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 06:24, John Day via Internet-history <
> > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> sorry forgot to hit reply-all
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
> > >>>>>> Date: April 9, 2024 at 06:22:45 EDT
> > >>>>>> To: Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:
> > 6.internet at gmail.com>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Nor was there about virtual circuits and X.25, but it was packet
> > >>> switching.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> We have known this was totally different for 50+ years. That isn?t
> > >>> the question. There are probably lots of ways to solve this problem.
> > What
> > >>> was the solution adopted?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> John
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 00:06, Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com
> > <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> John,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> There was hardly anything redudant, 'multi-path', decentralised,
> > >>> end-to-end free, open about telegrams. OUR "InterNetWorks" is
> > something
> > >>> totally and fundamentally different from THEIR telephones and
> > telegrams,
> > >>> hence it is unwise to allow THEM to trace the history of
> > Internetworking to
> > >>> the telegram switches bought by the Army, Navy and Airforce !
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 09:19 John Day, <jeanjour at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net> <mailto:
> > >>> jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> I guess this begs the question, what was the solution to
> > >>> internetworking?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2024, at 23:33, Sivasubramanian M via Internet-history
> > <
> > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> This history video narrated by an AI-like voice traces the
> > history
> > >>> of the
> > >>>>>>>>> Internet to telegraph switching and makes a passing suggestion
> > >>> that US
> > >>>>>>>>> Army, Navy and Airforce instituted automated telegraph switching
> > >>> euipment
> > >>>>>>>>> ... this was perhaps the first Internetwork. Clever argument.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 03:35 Vint Cerf via Internet-history, <
> > >>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:
> > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> interesting pre-Arpanet/Internet history
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkwWZ6ujy0
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > >>>>>>>>>> Vint Cerf
> > >>>>>>>>>> Google, LLC
> > >>>>>>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > >>>>>>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
> > >>>>>>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> until further notice
> > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > Internet-history mailing list
> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2024 09:07:47 +1200
> > From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
> > To: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>, Matt Mathis
> > <matt.mathis at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
> > Message-ID: <10735fb9-c5ae-4409-b5c4-a63cdb251990 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >
> > On 20-Apr-24 23:31, John Day via Internet-history wrote:
> > > In the early 70s, people were trying to figure out how to interwork
> > multiple networks of different technologies. What was the solution that was
> > arrived at that led to the current Internet?
> >
> > It's for Vint to comment, but I have always understood that Pouzin's two
> > 1974 papers were the recipe. If that's not the case, I really don't
> > understand the question. But it's not what they built. IPv4 is one protocol
> > to rule them all.
> >
> > Of course, we have been exploring a closely related question for 30 years:
> > how to interwork two slightly different technologies. One discussion of
> > that is at this rather alarming URL:
> >
> > https://github.com/becarpenter/book6/blob/main/3.%20Coexistence%20with%20Legacy%20IPv4/3.%20Coexistence%20with%20Legacy%20IPv4.md
> > .
> >
> > L. Pouzin, A Proposal for Interconnecting Packet Switching Networks, dated
> > March 1974, presented at Eurocomp, Brunel University, May 1974. (Also
> > INWG60 and Cyclades SCH 527.)
> >
> > L. Pouzin, Interconnection of Packet Switching Networks, 7th Hawaii
> > International Conference on System Sciences, Supplement, pp. 108-109, 1974.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > >
> > > I conjectured yesterday that the fundamental solution must have been in
> > hand by the time Cerf and Kahn published their paper.
> > >
> > > Are you conjecturing that the solution was gateways? and hence protocol
> > translation at the gateways?
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > John
> > >
> > >> On Apr 19, 2024, at 23:57, Matt Mathis <matt.mathis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Due to a missing reply all or something, some of us never saw the
> > beginning of the thread. What was your precise question?
> > >>
> > >> Questions of the form "When was X invented" almost always have answers
> > that are successive approximations. i.e. The ideas were around for a long
> > time, but didn't really work in the early days. The final answer ends up
> > depending on splitting hairs on whether version N-k is "functionally the
> > same" and version N, but version N-k-1 is not. I don't find such
> > definitions very useful, but the thread connecting the historical evolution
> > of a concept is fascinating. e.g. the evolution of gateways connecting
> > networks over thousands of years is interesting. Drawing the line between
> > between two and calling one the first modern gateway is not. That line
> > will move as gateways continue to evolve.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> --MM--
> > >> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use
> > force to apply it to others.
> > >> -------------------------------------------
> > >> Matt Mathis (Email is best)
> > >> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:33?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > wrote:
> > >>> All week and still don?t have an answer to my question. That is very
> > unusual for this list. ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>> So far there has been a lot of conjecture, not even hearsay, but no
> > facts.
> > >>>
> > >>> Having a few moments, I went back to look at the May 1974 paper to see
> > if had any clues, after all the title is "A Protocol for Packet Network
> > Intercommunication.? I assume the answer was found prior to that paper. Is
> > that true?
> > >>>
> > >>> I found two major topics there: the early part of the paper spends
> > time discussing protocol translation between networks and the rest of
> > course describes the protocol that became TCP.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is one of these insight to the solution? Just trying to understand
> > what it was.
> > >>>
> > >>> Take care,
> > >>> John
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Apr 14, 2024, at 16:07, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:
> > jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am surprised that there was not a lively discussion of this. It is
> > an honest question. It is unclear to me what precisely the solution to
> > internetworking was? I don?t want to suggest anything and affect the
> > answer, but I guess I could.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Take care,
> > >>>> John
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 06:24, John Day via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> sorry forgot to hit reply-all
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
> > >>>>>> Date: April 9, 2024 at 06:22:45 EDT
> > >>>>>> To: Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:
> > 6.internet at gmail.com>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Nor was there about virtual circuits and X.25, but it was packet
> > switching.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> We have known this was totally different for 50+ years. That isn?t
> > the question. There are probably lots of ways to solve this problem. What
> > was the solution adopted?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> John
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 00:06, Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com
> > <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> John,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> There was hardly anything redudant, 'multi-path', decentralised,
> > end-to-end free, open about telegrams. OUR "InterNetWorks" is something
> > totally and fundamentally different from THEIR telephones and telegrams,
> > hence it is unwise to allow THEM to trace the history of Internetworking to
> > the telegram switches bought by the Army, Navy and Airforce !
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 09:19 John Day, <jeanjour at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net> <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:
> > jeanjour at comcast.net>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> I guess this begs the question, what was the solution to
> > internetworking?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2024, at 23:33, Sivasubramanian M via Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> This history video narrated by an AI-like voice traces the
> > history of the
> > >>>>>>>>> Internet to telegraph switching and makes a passing suggestion
> > that US
> > >>>>>>>>> Army, Navy and Airforce instituted automated telegraph switching
> > euipment
> > >>>>>>>>> ... this was perhaps the first Internetwork. Clever argument.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 03:35 Vint Cerf via Internet-history, <
> > >>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> interesting pre-Arpanet/Internet history
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkwWZ6ujy0
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > >>>>>>>>>> Vint Cerf
> > >>>>>>>>>> Google, LLC
> > >>>>>>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > >>>>>>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
> > >>>>>>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> until further notice
> > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > >>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 14:39:49 -0700
> > From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com>
> > To: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> > Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com>, Matt Mathis
> > <matt.mathis at gmail.com>, Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
> > Message-ID: <4E2DBD77-E19E-4B32-B3B2-881285D1A02A at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 20, 2024, at 10:02?AM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, I am aware of that.
> > >
> > > What does that have to do with the solution?
> > >
> > > What was the view in, say, 1975 or 76?
> > >
> > > Are you also suggesting that the solution was protocol translation?
> > >
> > > Or are you suggesting that all of the different networks were data link
> > protocols?
> >
> > No, just that the term Gateway was used differently in the early 1980?s
> > than now.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Apr 20, 2024, at 11:42, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> John,
> > >>
> > >>> On Apr 20, 2024, at 4:31?AM, John Day via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> In the early 70s, people were trying to figure out how to interwork
> > multiple networks of different technologies. What was the solution that was
> > arrived at that led to the current Internet?
> > >>>
> > >>> I conjectured yesterday that the fundamental solution must have been
> > in hand by the time Cerf and Kahn published their paper.
> > >>>
> > >>> Are you conjecturing that the solution was gateways? and hence
> > protocol translation at the gateways?
> > >>
> > >> It?s made more complicated because the terms used have changed. The
> > devices we used to connect the Arpanet to Satnet, Packet Radio networks,
> > LANs, in the early 80?s were called Gateways. Today we could call them
> > Routers. For example:
> > >>
> > >> Hinden, R., Haverty, J., Sheltzer, A., ?The DARPA Internet:
> > Interconnecting Heterogeneous Computer Networks with Gateways?, Computer,
> > Vol. 12, No. 9, September 1983, pages 38-48.
> > >>
> > >> Bob
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Take care,
> > >>> John
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Apr 19, 2024, at 23:57, Matt Mathis <matt.mathis at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Due to a missing reply all or something, some of us never saw the
> > beginning of the thread. What was your precise question?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Questions of the form "When was X invented" almost always have
> > answers that are successive approximations. i.e. The ideas were around for
> > a long time, but didn't really work in the early days. The final answer
> > ends up depending on splitting hairs on whether version N-k is
> > "functionally the same" and version N, but version N-k-1 is not. I don't
> > find such definitions very useful, but the thread connecting the historical
> > evolution of a concept is fascinating. e.g. the evolution of gateways
> > connecting networks over thousands of years is interesting. Drawing the
> > line between between two and calling one the first modern gateway is not.
> > That line will move as gateways continue to evolve.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>> --MM--
> > >>>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use
> > force to apply it to others.
> > >>>> -------------------------------------------
> > >>>> Matt Mathis (Email is best)
> > >>>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:33?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>> All week and still don?t have an answer to my question. That is
> > very unusual for this list. ;-)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So far there has been a lot of conjecture, not even hearsay, but no
> > facts.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Having a few moments, I went back to look at the May 1974 paper to
> > see if had any clues, after all the title is "A Protocol for Packet Network
> > Intercommunication.? I assume the answer was found prior to that paper. Is
> > that true?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I found two major topics there: the early part of the paper spends
> > time discussing protocol translation between networks and the rest of
> > course describes the protocol that became TCP.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is one of these insight to the solution? Just trying to understand
> > what it was.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Take care,
> > >>>>> John
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Apr 14, 2024, at 16:07, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:
> > jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I am surprised that there was not a lively discussion of this. It
> > is an honest question. It is unclear to me what precisely the solution to
> > internetworking was? I don?t want to suggest anything and affect the
> > answer, but I guess I could.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Take care,
> > >>>>>> John
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 06:24, John Day via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> sorry forgot to hit reply-all
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net
> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
> > >>>>>>>> Date: April 9, 2024 at 06:22:45 EDT
> > >>>>>>>> To: Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:
> > 6.internet at gmail.com>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Nor was there about virtual circuits and X.25, but it was packet
> > switching.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> We have known this was totally different for 50+ years. That
> > isn?t the question. There are probably lots of ways to solve this problem.
> > What was the solution adopted?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> John
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 00:06, Sivasubramanian M <
> > 6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> John,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> There was hardly anything redudant, 'multi-path', decentralised,
> > end-to-end free, open about telegrams. OUR "InterNetWorks" is something
> > totally and fundamentally different from THEIR telephones and telegrams,
> > hence it is unwise to allow THEM to trace the history of Internetworking to
> > the telegram switches bought by the Army, Navy and Airforce !
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 09:19 John Day, <jeanjour at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net> <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:
> > jeanjour at comcast.net>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> I guess this begs the question, what was the solution to
> > internetworking?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2024, at 23:33, Sivasubramanian M via
> > Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> This history video narrated by an AI-like voice traces the
> > history of the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Internet to telegraph switching and makes a passing suggestion
> > that US
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Army, Navy and Airforce instituted automated telegraph
> > switching euipment
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ... this was perhaps the first Internetwork. Clever argument.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 03:35 Vint Cerf via Internet-history, <
> > >>>>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting pre-Arpanet/Internet history
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkwWZ6ujy0
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Vint Cerf
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Google, LLC
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> until further notice
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
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> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 53, Issue 28
> > ************************************************
> >
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