[ih] Oceanview Tales

Thu Jun 23 09:21:09 PDT 2022

OK, book time. That was all the excuse I needed.

I just published my 2nd book <https://www.albertcory.io/the-big-bucks>,
which takes place in the 80s, largely at 3Com. Dave Crocker helped with the
Wollongong chapter, and Gordon Peterson (architect of ARCNet) helped with
Datapoint. Bob Metcalfe appears in a couple places as "Bob Metcalfe."

It's a novel, so it's not all techie stuff. If you were around then, you
know that 3Com wasn't *too* much involved in the Internet, but we were
aware of it and that does creep in. As does OSI and even the Minitel.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:07 AM Larry Stewart via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> ref Oceanview Tales.  I think many of them are in The World According to
> Professor... https://www.amazon.com/dp/1495220850?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
>
> > On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:58 AM, internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
> wrote:
> >
> > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
> >    internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >
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> > than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Scott Bradner)
> >   2. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Vint Cerf)
> >   3. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Joe Touch)
> >   4. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Alex McKenzie)
> >   5. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Tom Lyon)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:05:55 -0400
> > From: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>
> > To: internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> > Message-ID: <892DF42D-7D86-4A55-8565-42060F07CCAE at sobco.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
> >
> > I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at
> https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> from the presentation
> >>
> >> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
> >> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
> >>
> >> Scott
> >>
> >>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine
> metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes time to
> mature, but milk spoils.
> >>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
> >>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
> >>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give
> application access to low latency service.
> >>>
> >>> v
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in
> August 2010
> >>>
> >>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 -
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
> >>>
> >>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a
> copy
> >>>
> >>> Scott
> >>>
> >>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and
> IP were
> >>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this
> separation
> >>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of
> UDP, of
> >>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later
> became
> >>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and
> that the
> >>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am also
> >>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular
> stand out).
> >>>>
> >>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much
> on this
> >>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet
> Meeting
> >>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds
> like the
> >>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day
> before.
> >>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31
> January
> >>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 & 14
> >>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction for
> a
> >>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting
> Notes - 15
> >>>> August 1977", though.
> >>>>
> >>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting
> was the
> >>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
> >>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the
> impressions that
> >>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen,
> because
> >>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not
> correctness. (In
> >>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3
> becoming all
> >>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his
> most
> >>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have
> been in
> >>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like
> things). And
> >>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure
> the PARC
> >>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone?
> Did
> >>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural
> benefit
> >>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to
> _some_
> >>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the
> IENs.
> >>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion was
> >>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
> >>>>
> >>>>     Noel
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:10:32 -0400
> > From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> > To: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>
> > Cc: internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> > Message-ID:
> >    <CAHxHggeYqDcVh0rdM4vzkjNVL51eR4yCsz_cFGS9uH0JiHhgkA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn
> them
> > up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:06 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at
> >> https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
> >>
> >> Scott
> >>
> >>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> from the presentation
> >>>
> >>> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
> >>> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
> >>>
> >>> Scott
> >>>
> >>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine
> >> metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes
> time to
> >> mature, but milk spoils.
> >>>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
> >>>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
> >>>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give
> >> application access to low latency service.
> >>>>
> >>>> v
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in
> >> August 2010
> >>>>
> >>>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 -
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a
> >> copy
> >>>>
> >>>> Scott
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and
> >> IP were
> >>>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this
> >> separation
> >>>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of
> >> UDP, of
> >>>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later
> >> became
> >>>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and
> >> that the
> >>>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am
> also
> >>>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular
> >> stand out).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much
> >> on this
> >>>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet
> >> Meeting
> >>>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds
> >> like the
> >>>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day
> >> before.
> >>>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31
> >> January
> >>>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 &
> 14
> >>>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction
> for a
> >>>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting
> >> Notes - 15
> >>>>> August 1977", though.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting
> >> was the
> >>>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
> >>>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the
> >> impressions that
> >>>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen,
> >> because
> >>>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not
> >> correctness. (In
> >>>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3
> >> becoming all
> >>>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his
> most
> >>>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have
> >> been in
> >>>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like
> things).
> >> And
> >>>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure
> the
> >> PARC
> >>>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone?
> Did
> >>>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural
> >> benefit
> >>>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to
> >> _some_
> >>>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the
> >> IENs.
> >>>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion
> was
> >>>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Noel
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > Vint Cerf
> > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd
> > McLean, VA 22102
> > 703-448-0965
> >
> > until further notice
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 11:39:22 -0400
> > From: Joe Touch <touch at strayalpha.com>
> > To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> > Cc: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>, internet-history
> >    <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> > Message-ID: <4EB8E637-AB4B-4F13-8CAD-4EE3CDF0B223 at strayalpha.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jun 23, 2022, at 9:10 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn
> them
> >> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
> >
> > There are no such things anymore (the paper ones were tossed and digital
> is spotty) since they dismantled the ISI library (too long ago to recall).
> It wasn?t incorporated into the Viterbi School library despite very active
> objections.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:46:46 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: Alex McKenzie <amckenzie3 at yahoo.com>
> > To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> > Message-ID: <1906745218.2182493.1655999206396 at mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > I'm pretty sure I have a copy at home that I bought from Amazon.?
> However I won't be home until mid-July, so I can't check the exact title,
> and I can't remember the "author".? Perhaps someone with a better memory
> can find a current listing.
> > Cheers,Alex
> >
> >    On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 09:10:57 AM EDT, Vint Cerf via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn
> them
> > up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
> >
> > v
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:57:41 -0700
> > From: Tom Lyon <pugs at ieee.org>
> > To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> > Cc: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>, internet-history
> >    <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> > Message-ID:
> >    <CAAOGWQjWn3LE5032LdScTCzv0qXg20XkQJyB4fuNe92-chAOjg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Do you mean this? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1495220850/
> > "The World According to Professor James A. Finnegan..."
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:10 AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn
> them
> >> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
> >>
> >> v
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:06 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at
> >>> https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
> >>>
> >>> Scott
> >>>
> >>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> from the presentation
> >>>>
> >>>> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
> >>>> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
> >>>>
> >>>> Scott
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine
> >>> metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes
> time
> >> to
> >>> mature, but milk spoils.
> >>>>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
> >>>>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
> >>>>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give
> >>> application access to low latency service.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> v
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in
> >>> August 2010
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 -
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a
> >>> copy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Scott
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP
> and
> >>> IP were
> >>>>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this
> >>> separation
> >>>>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of
> >>> UDP, of
> >>>>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later
> >>> became
> >>>>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and
> >>> that the
> >>>>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am
> >> also
> >>>>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular
> >>> stand out).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much
> >>> on this
> >>>>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22
> "Internet
> >>> Meeting
> >>>>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds
> >>> like the
> >>>>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day
> >>> before.
> >>>>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31
> >>> January
> >>>>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 &
> >> 14
> >>>>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction
> >> for a
> >>>>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting
> >>> Notes - 15
> >>>>>> August 1977", though.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting
> >>> was the
> >>>>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt
> from
> >>>>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the
> >>> impressions that
> >>>>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this
> happen,
> >>> because
> >>>>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not
> >>> correctness. (In
> >>>>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3
> >>> becoming all
> >>>>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his
> >> most
> >>>>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may
> have
> >>> been in
> >>>>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like
> >> things).
> >>> And
> >>>>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure
> >> the
> >>> PARC
> >>>>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone?
> >> Did
> >>>>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural
> >>> benefit
> >>>>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to
> >>> _some_
> >>>>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in
> the
> >>> IENs.
> >>>>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion
> >> was
> >>>>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>     Noel
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> >> Vint Cerf
> >> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd
> >> McLean, VA 22102
> >> 703-448-0965
> >>
> >> until further notice
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Tom
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
> > ***********************************************
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>