[ih] Oceanview Tales
Larry Stewart
stewart at serissa.com
Thu Jun 23 09:07:13 PDT 2022
ref Oceanview Tales. I think many of them are in The World According to Professor... https://www.amazon.com/dp/1495220850?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
> On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:58 AM, internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>
> Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Scott Bradner)
> 2. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Vint Cerf)
> 3. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Joe Touch)
> 4. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Alex McKenzie)
> 5. Re: Separation of TCP and IP (Tom Lyon)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:05:55 -0400
> From: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>
> To: internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> Message-ID: <892DF42D-7D86-4A55-8565-42060F07CCAE at sobco.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
>
> Scott
>
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> from the presentation
>>
>> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
>> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes time to mature, but milk spoils.
>>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
>>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
>>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give application access to low latency service.
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in August 2010
>>>
>>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
>>>
>>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a copy
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and IP were
>>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this separation
>>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of UDP, of
>>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later became
>>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and that the
>>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am also
>>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular stand out).
>>>>
>>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much on this
>>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet Meeting
>>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds like the
>>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day before.
>>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31 January
>>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 & 14
>>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction for a
>>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting Notes - 15
>>>> August 1977", though.
>>>>
>>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting was the
>>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
>>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the impressions that
>>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen, because
>>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not correctness. (In
>>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3 becoming all
>>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his most
>>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have been in
>>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like things). And
>>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure the PARC
>>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone? Did
>>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural benefit
>>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to _some_
>>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the IENs.
>>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion was
>>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
>>>>
>>>> Noel
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:10:32 -0400
> From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> To: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>
> Cc: internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> Message-ID:
> <CAHxHggeYqDcVh0rdM4vzkjNVL51eR4yCsz_cFGS9uH0JiHhgkA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn them
> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
>
> v
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:06 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at
>> https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> from the presentation
>>>
>>> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
>>> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine
>> metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes time to
>> mature, but milk spoils.
>>>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
>>>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
>>>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give
>> application access to low latency service.
>>>>
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in
>> August 2010
>>>>
>>>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 -
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
>>>>
>>>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a
>> copy
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and
>> IP were
>>>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this
>> separation
>>>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of
>> UDP, of
>>>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later
>> became
>>>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and
>> that the
>>>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am also
>>>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular
>> stand out).
>>>>>
>>>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much
>> on this
>>>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet
>> Meeting
>>>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds
>> like the
>>>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day
>> before.
>>>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31
>> January
>>>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 & 14
>>>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction for a
>>>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting
>> Notes - 15
>>>>> August 1977", though.
>>>>>
>>>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting
>> was the
>>>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
>>>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the
>> impressions that
>>>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen,
>> because
>>>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not
>> correctness. (In
>>>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3
>> becoming all
>>>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his most
>>>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have
>> been in
>>>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like things).
>> And
>>>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure the
>> PARC
>>>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone? Did
>>>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural
>> benefit
>>>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to
>> _some_
>>>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the
>> IENs.
>>>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion was
>>>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Noel
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd
> McLean, VA 22102
> 703-448-0965
>
> until further notice
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 11:39:22 -0400
> From: Joe Touch <touch at strayalpha.com>
> To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Cc: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>, internet-history
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> Message-ID: <4EB8E637-AB4B-4F13-8CAD-4EE3CDF0B223 at strayalpha.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 9:10 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn them
>> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
>
> There are no such things anymore (the paper ones were tossed and digital is spotty) since they dismantled the ISI library (too long ago to recall). It wasn?t incorporated into the Viterbi School library despite very active objections.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:46:46 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Alex McKenzie <amckenzie3 at yahoo.com>
> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> Message-ID: <1906745218.2182493.1655999206396 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I'm pretty sure I have a copy at home that I bought from Amazon.? However I won't be home until mid-July, so I can't check the exact title, and I can't remember the "author".? Perhaps someone with a better memory can find a current listing.
> Cheers,Alex
>
> On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 09:10:57 AM EDT, Vint Cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn them
> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
>
> v
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:57:41 -0700
> From: Tom Lyon <pugs at ieee.org>
> To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Cc: Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com>, internet-history
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP
> Message-ID:
> <CAAOGWQjWn3LE5032LdScTCzv0qXg20XkQJyB4fuNe92-chAOjg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Do you mean this? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1495220850/
> "The World According to Professor James A. Finnegan..."
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:10 AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn them
>> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:06 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at
>>> https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> from the presentation
>>>>
>>>> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
>>>> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine
>>> metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes time
>> to
>>> mature, but milk spoils.
>>>>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
>>>>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
>>>>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give
>>> application access to low latency service.
>>>>>
>>>>> v
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in
>>> August 2010
>>>>>
>>>>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 -
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a
>>> copy
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and
>>> IP were
>>>>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this
>>> separation
>>>>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of
>>> UDP, of
>>>>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later
>>> became
>>>>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and
>>> that the
>>>>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am
>> also
>>>>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular
>>> stand out).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much
>>> on this
>>>>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet
>>> Meeting
>>>>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds
>>> like the
>>>>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day
>>> before.
>>>>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31
>>> January
>>>>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 &
>> 14
>>>>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction
>> for a
>>>>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting
>>> Notes - 15
>>>>>> August 1977", though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting
>>> was the
>>>>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
>>>>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the
>>> impressions that
>>>>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen,
>>> because
>>>>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not
>>> correctness. (In
>>>>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3
>>> becoming all
>>>>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his
>> most
>>>>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have
>>> been in
>>>>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like
>> things).
>>> And
>>>>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure
>> the
>>> PARC
>>>>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone?
>> Did
>>>>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural
>>> benefit
>>>>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to
>>> _some_
>>>>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the
>>> IENs.
>>>>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion
>> was
>>>>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Noel
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd
>> McLean, VA 22102
>> 703-448-0965
>>
>> until further notice
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>
>
> --
> - Tom
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
> ***********************************************
More information about the Internet-history
mailing list