[ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7

Wed Jun 9 20:52:53 PDT 2021

I'm certainly no expert on DNS, but let me support the notion that there is
a significant difference between a basic name server (such as Postel's IEN
89 proposal, in 1979), and a robust, distributed naming capability (such as
DNS).
https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt

John Shoch

[PS:  In our parallel universe at PARC, other people (not me) had developed:
--A basic name server implemented as part of PUP in the late 70's, and
published in 1979:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/alto/ethernet/pupArch.pdf
--A more general distributed naming/binding service (the Clearinghouse)
implemented as part of XNS, and published by Oppen and Dalal in 1981:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/OPD-T8103_The_Clearinghouse.pdf
 ]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 6:26 PM <internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: DNS origins? (Brian E Carpenter)
>    2. Re: DNS origins? (Barbara Denny)
>    3. Re: DNS origins? (Jack Haverty)
>    4. Re: DNS origins? (Carsten Bormann)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 09:00:09 +1200
> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins?
> Message-ID: <9429a109-6138-3749-38d2-401d5cf77798 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> fwiw "where wizards stay up late" page 252 says
>
> "The core of the DNS team was Jon Postel and Paul Mockapetris at ISI, and
> BBN's Craig Partridge. They spent three months working out the details and
> in November 1983 came forward with two RFCs..."
>
> I assume that BIND came a bit later.
>
> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
>
> On 10-Jun-21 05:11, Kevin J Dunlap via Internet-history wrote:
> > Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group,
> > Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the
> initial BIND project team.
> > Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters.
> >
> > Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC.
> >
> > RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS.
> > I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG.
> >
> > -Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT
> >> Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes:
> >>
> >>      "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)"
> >>
> >> Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*)
> >>
> >> I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol
> >> design effort.
> >>
> >> In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial
> RFC.
> >>
> >> Anyone able/willing to comment?
> >>
> >> tnx.
> >>
> >> d/
> >> --
> >> Dave Crocker
> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >> bbiw.net
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 21:26:13 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins?
> Message-ID: <610666796.5565957.1623273973741 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>  I am curious about the dates you suggest.? ?I was in the mobility
> perspective camp but I don't remember anyone telling me that this had been
> discussed before or providing me any? information in this context at the
> time.? I didn't start working on packet radio until the end of 1981, or
> perhaps the beginning of 1982, so anything done? prior to those dates I
> might not have been aware of.? However, I would have thought other people
> at BBN would have mentioned it since I am? pretty sure Jil Westcott, BBN
> packet radio project manager,? ? is the one who gave me the assignment for
> the meeting.
> barbara
>
>     On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 01:16:37 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>  I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the
> design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in
> San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that
> occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held
> somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably
> 1980/81.
>
> There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for
> powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the
> other was arguing for more simplicity.
>
> I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying
> to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which
> changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet
> addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed
> on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the
> various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their
> expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently,
> in the heat of a battlefield operation.
>
> These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different
> solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs
> not long after that meeting in San Diego.
>
> Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see
> IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 -
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt
>
> I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s...
>
> /Jack Haverty
>
>
> On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> > On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
> >> ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of
> >> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio
> >> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I
> >> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my
> >> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't
> >> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there.
> >
> >
> > Some additions about timeline:
> >
> >
> > I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS.
> >
> >
> > However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively
> > small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It
> > included support for domain name, which is to say support for the
> > dotted name notation in a host reference.
> >
> > SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written
> > by Jon.)
> >
> > I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support
> > in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was
> > developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a
> > face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions.
> >
> > I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of
> > domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the
> > entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as
> > the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was
> > not a source route.
> >
> > So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic
> > hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism
> > -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't
> > but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.)
> >
> > d/
> >
>
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 15:01:27 -0700
> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins?
> Message-ID: <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6 at 3kitty.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> It's been a long time....?? I remember the debate, and that it was
> somewhere in California.? I thought it was San Diego, but might have
> been PARC.? There was a large auditorium with theater-style seating
> where the discussion occurred.
>
> This meeting may have happened before the D appeared in DNS.? There had
> been ongoing discussions of how to do a Name Server for the Internet,
> since the ARPANET style mechanism using a file at SRI-NIC couldn't
> handle the obvious impending torrent of workstations on LANs that TCP
> made possible for the network community.?? It was one of the topics on
> the ICCB's list of "things we have to work on". Jon had published
> several IENs on "Internet Name Server", starting IIRC with #61.
>
> The discussion I remember concerned the methods and timing involved in
> updating a name/address pair when there was a collection of servers on
> the Internet.?? The "simple" mechanism could take as much as a day or so
> for any change to propagate out to reach all the servers.? That was of
> course incompatible with the changes expected with mobile hosts, or even
> LANs.?? It was obvious even then that it was much easier to move a
> Sparcstation than a PDP-10.?? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning
> smartphones or Dick Tracy watches as perhaps the ultimate "mobile
> host".?? But we have them today and the Internet still seems to work...
>
> The early versions of the protocol, again IIRC, structured names
> somewhat like IP addresses, with "Net" and "Rest" parts.?? But that
> would have problems if a computer moved from one network to another (no
> one had laptops yet...and no wifi either)
>
> So, at some point that "Internet Name Server" approach was changed to
> incorporate Domains so that names didn't necessarily correspond to any
> physical network structure, and anybody could pick whatever names they
> wanted in their own world/domain.
>
> Roughly at about the same time, Jon Schoch wrote his seminal "Names,
> Addresses, and Routes" paper, which brought a lot of thinking into a
> cohesive idea.?? Xerox protocols (PUP et al) had their own schemes for
> naming, and PARC people did participate in Internet meetings. History
> IMHO should look at what was going on in other communities at the same
> time.? The Internet did not evolve in a vacuum.
>
> I remember all this stuff happening (and namedroppers, another of those
> mailing lists where lots of technical interaction happened). But dates -
> not so much...?? So, depending on what the "origins of DNS" means, I'd
> point to Jon's earliest IEN as the start of Name Servers on the Internet.
>
> /Jack
>
>
> On 6/9/21 2:26 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
> >   I am curious about the dates you suggest.? ?I was in the mobility
> perspective camp but I don't remember anyone telling me that this had been
> discussed before or providing me any? information in this context at the
> time.? I didn't start working on packet radio until the end of 1981, or
> perhaps the beginning of 1982, so anything done? prior to those dates I
> might not have been aware of.? However, I would have thought other people
> at BBN would have mentioned it since I am? pretty sure Jil Westcott, BBN
> packet radio project manager,? ? is the one who gave me the assignment for
> the meeting.
> > barbara
> >
> >      On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 01:16:37 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> >   I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the
> > design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in
> > San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that
> > occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held
> > somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably
> 1980/81.
> >
> > There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for
> > powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the
> > other was arguing for more simplicity.
> >
> > I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying
> > to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which
> > changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet
> > addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed
> > on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the
> > various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their
> > expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently,
> > in the heat of a battlefield operation.
> >
> > These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different
> > solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs
> > not long after that meeting in San Diego.
> >
> > Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see
> > IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 -
> > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt
> >
> > I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s...
> >
> > /Jack Haverty
> >
> >
> > On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> >> On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>  ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of
> >>> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio
> >>> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I
> >>> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my
> >>> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't
> >>> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there.
> >>
> >> Some additions about timeline:
> >>
> >>
> >> I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS.
> >>
> >>
> >> However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively
> >> small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It
> >> included support for domain name, which is to say support for the
> >> dotted name notation in a host reference.
> >>
> >> SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written
> >> by Jon.)
> >>
> >> I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support
> >> in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was
> >> developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a
> >> face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions.
> >>
> >> I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of
> >> domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the
> >> entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as
> >> the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was
> >> not a source route.
> >>
> >> So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic
> >> hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism
> >> -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't
> >> but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.)
> >>
> >> d/
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 03:26:27 +0200
> From: Carsten Bormann <cabo at tzi.org>
> To: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
> Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins?
> Message-ID: <D3F9E61B-BC5B-4EAC-8F64-6314507052BC at tzi.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> On 10. Jun 2021, at 00:01, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > no one had laptops yet
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass:
>
> Release date    April 1982
>
> (I vividly remember seeing one on a trade show, probably 1983, and
> thinking ?so this is the way we are going to work??
> Took till 1988 until I had my first Toshiba laptop.
> Added a portable ink-jet, and I completely dominated the standards
> meetings with that combo.
> Modem and "FTP Software??s PC/TCP...
> At the time, the main equipment supporting a standards meeting was a
> kitchen-size Xerox copier pipeline?  But I digress.)
>
> Gr??e, Carsten
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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> End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7
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