[ih] Interop as part of Internet History (was Re: Fwd: Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway Protocol))
Jack Haverty
jack at 3kitty.org
Thu Sep 10 13:45:30 PDT 2020
Yes! That was the place. IMHO, much of Internet History happened in
such places. Sadly for historians, no one took minutes. Not even
Jon. And the memories are fading. /Jack
On 9/10/20 1:02 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
> Late For the Train was the restaurant. It had wonderful blintzes. I got introduced to it when I was still working at BBN. There was a packet radio meeting at SRI and the BBN contingent wanted to eat there. Unfortunately it closed years ago.
> barbara
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 12:52:26 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> I'll take a look, it easily could have been at SRI. BTW, when I say
> "meeting" it wasn't necessarily some formal session. We had lots of
> informal impromptu "meetings". I vaguely remember that there was some
> restaurant near SRI that was popular where people used to gather.
> Something to do with a train station; the tracks were right next to the
> building. Also a pancake/breakfast venue -- maybe "Ken's".
>
> /Jack
>
> On 9/10/20 11:27 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>> Could that meeting have been at SRI? I have a memory of listening to a discussion regarding the creation of the IETF and the IRTF. I could be wrong about this maybe being the meeting where it happened but I thought it might help you if you look through your notes.
>> barbara
>> On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 11:11:55 AM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Vint,
>>
>> I concur that the genesis of TCP was in 1973, and spawned a collection
>> of separate projects, e.g., Packet Radio, Atlantic Satellite, etc.
>> which along with the ARPANET were forming the core of what we now call
>> Internet.
>>
>> What I was remembering is that the moniker "Internet Project" didn't
>> become permanent until the later 70s, with "internet" replacing the
>> earlier term "catenet", as described in 1978 in:
>>
>> http://catenet.org/index.php/IEN_48_-_THE_CATENET_MODEL_FOR_INTERNETWORKING
>>
>> I recall some meeting, probably 1978/9, where there was a discussion of
>> what to call our new conglomeration of networks. The term "catenet" was
>> proposed, but the general feeling was that it would cause people to
>> envision herds of cats, and the term "internet" achieved the "rough
>> consensus" stage as the best candidate for a name. We already had
>> running code!
>>
>> The ICCB/IAB was also a key element of history, especially as the
>> creator of the IETF and IRTF. Somewhere I have my notes of the ICCB (or
>> was it IAB by then...?) meeting where that happened.
>>
>> Pandemics provide rare opportunities to dig through old boxes in the
>> basement...
>>
>> /Jack
>>
>> On 9/10/20 2:55 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:22 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> That "ACE Coaster" was handed out (by Dan, IIRC) at a small (dozen
>>> or so
>>> people) meeting that Dan called, I think to mostly bounce off ideas
>>> about a training/conference company. Again IIRC this happened
>>> somewhat
>>> before the first actual conference in Monterey, where Dan subsequently
>>> stole the Internet using chocolate-chip cookies as bribes. Vint
>>> never
>>> served such cookies!
>>>
>>> no, but I did offer champagne for winners of the TCP/IP Hackathons.
>>>
>>>
>>> >From my retro-perspective, it was an interesting progression of
>>> events.
>>>
>>> The ARPA "Internet Project" had started in the late 70s with a
>>> somewhat
>>>
>>> no, it started in 1973.
>>>
>>> disjoint set of network-building projects, and had congealed into a
>>> network community, with quarterly meetings.
>>>
>>> At first, the "TCP Working Group" and the "Internet Working Group" met
>>> separately. Quickly we noticed that the TCP group kept coming up with
>>> changes to the IP header, while the IP group saw things that needed to
>>> be in the TCP header, and everyone in one group wanted to
>>> participate in
>>> the other, so "layering" was cast aside and the Internet Project as a
>>> single group was born.
>>>
>>> Over a year or two of such quarterly meetings, the size of the
>>> membership kept growing, and people had to plead with Vint for a
>>> "ticket" to attend.
>>>
>>> It had become difficult to find a willing host that had a venue big
>>> enough to handle the crowd for plenary and breakout sessions. I
>>> hosted
>>> one at BBN, and learned that it is a very bad idea to host a large
>>> meeting in a newly renovated building with lots of free rooms and
>>> space,
>>> but without first testing to make sure the brand-new sparkling
>>> bathrooms
>>> actually worked.
>>>
>>> The logistics of the quarterly meetings were becoming a serious
>>> problem. Then Dan stepped in.
>>>
>>> Instead of a meeting where ARPA and some benefactor host venue
>>> paid the
>>> costs and necessarily severely limited attendance, Dan rented (I
>>> assume
>>> it wasn't free!) a hotel, opened up a "ticket booth" to the masses,
>>>
>>> This is only half correct. Dan indeed opened Internet up to the public
>>> but as I recall, the Internet research program continued in parallel.
>>> The Internet Configuration Control Board (1979) morphed into the
>>> Internet Advisory Board in 1984 with 10 Task Forces after Barry Leiner
>>> took over
>>> the program management of the Internet Project at DARPA. In 1986, IAB
>>> become the Internet Activities Board under Dennis Perry's program
>>> management
>>> at DARPA. see https://www.iab.org/about/history/IAB and IETF and IRTF
>>> continue as
>>> does INTEROP after its sale by Dan Lynch to Masayoshi Son (when?)
>>>
>>> charged attendees a fee that didn't raise too many bean-counters'
>>> alarms, and added a show floor for vendors too, for an appropriate fee
>>> of course. He also recruited many of the people who used to just
>>> attend the quarterly Internet project meetings to provide the
>>> entertainment for all the attendees, and called it training and
>>> program
>>> presentations.
>>>
>>> Not a bad solution to the problem, eh?
>>>
>>> I recall at first there was just a room with some tables and a handful
>>> of vendors showing their wares. That turned pretty quickly into a
>>> trade
>>> show floor in Santa Clara, expanding into Moscone, and before long
>>> heading to Vegas when Moscone was just too small.
>>>
>>> All of this had the overriding mandate that there would be a strong
>>> technical focus, a live network, and vendors had to connect their
>>> stuff
>>> to it. For a few years, I was on the Interop "Program Committee",
>>> which
>>> met around a big table to decide which papers would be put into the
>>> program. It was common to look at a paper, see who was the
>>> author, and
>>> if there was even a hint of "marketing" present, it quickly went
>>> to the
>>> reject pile. Sometimes all it took was a look at the authors'
>>> titles.
>>>
>>> I remember a meeting where Dan took a few of us to Moscone, to
>>> meet with
>>> the powers-that-be about possibly holding Interop there. They were
>>> cordial, but IMHO clearly thought this event-they-never-heard-of
>>> didn't
>>> belong in Moscone. A year later, after blowing out Santa Clara, they
>>> were much more receptive. Doing the "MazeWar" throughout the Interop
>>> show floor was ... interesting. I checked in to my hotel room on
>>> Sunday
>>> at noon, and didn't get back until Tuesday night. After a few
>>> years in
>>> Moscone, it had become too small for Interop, so it was off to Vegas.
>>>
>>> Fun times. Interop was, IMHO, critical to getting the Internet
>>> out into
>>> the real world. Nobody else showed products actually working, and
>>> that
>>> matters to the people who approve the POs.
>>>
>>> But it's a good thing Dan didn't have more of the used-car-salesman
>>> genes. Otherwise we would have all left Interop each year with a new
>>> vehicle. Internet-ready, of course.
>>>
>>> You were wrong, Dan. IMHO, you could have gotten more than 50%....
>>>
>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/8/20 2:48 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > Craig, I think you did not copy the list. And while I’m at it,
>>> a small edit. I paid the tutors 15% , a full 50% more than the
>>> competition. I also charged everybody 50% more than the
>>> competition because I felt it was worth it! I even charged the
>>> vendors 50% more than the competition. I turned out that I was right.
>>> >
>>> > Dan
>>> >
>>> > Cell 650-776-7313
>>> >
>>> > Begin forwarded message:
>>> >
>>> >> From: Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net
>>> <mailto:craig at tereschau.net>>
>>> >> Date: September 8, 2020 at 1:14:05 PM PDT
>>> >> To: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com <mailto:dan at lynch.com>>
>>> >> Cc: Craig Partridge via Internet-history
>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
>>> >> Subject: Re: [ih] Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway
>>> Protocol)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Dan was kind enough to mention me, which makes it a little
>>> harder to send this note but I'll do it anyway.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think Dan underplays how radical Interop was. Vendors had to
>>> connect their equipment to the show network. There was a team of
>>> Internet wizards who helped setup the show network for each show.
>>> (I recall stories of laying things out on netting in a warehouse
>>> so that it could easily be transferred to the show floor). But it
>>> meant products actually worked.
>>> >>
>>> >> And then there was the education component, which as Dan tells,
>>> started things. Dan took the view that he tried to hire the top
>>> instructors in the field and compensate them properly. At a time
>>> when competitors were paying 10% of the gross or $2K, whichever
>>> was less, Dan paid $2K or 10% of the gross, whichever was more.
>>> That meant Interop's courses, instead of being taught by a grad
>>> student or a professor trying out a new course idea, were taught
>>> by folks like Doug Comer and Scott Bradner and Radia Perlman,
>>> teaching their areas of expertise. As a result, the educational
>>> program was immense -- many thousands of students. And because
>>> the instructors were already in town, Dan could recruit us to come
>>> do a panel session for the main program as well. The panels were
>>> often also huge. (I still remember a session I led that included
>>> Dave Clark and a couple of other key folks -- the room was packed
>>> -- probably 5,000 people -- and was so jammed that someone stepped
>>> on the tablecloth for the projector, dumping all our slides [this
>>> was pre-Powerpoint real-time projection] on the floor! So I had
>>> to talk w/o slides while the other speakers ran to the back to
>>> reinsert their slides!).
>>> >>
>>> >> Attending Interop was a full week affair -- you got trained and
>>> then went to the showfloor and conference sessions, while grabbing
>>> a handful of the old Doubletree cookies (twice the size they are
>>> today) during the breaks.
>>> >>
>>> >> The transitions in size were wild. We went from Monterrey, to
>>> the Santa Clara TechMart, to the San Jose Convention center to the
>>> Moscone Center in SF in rapid succession.
>>> >>
>>> >> Craig
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 12:52 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history
>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>> >>> SoJack, you are asking me to recount how Interop came to be. I
>>> shall do that as quickly as I can here.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> In the early 80s I was at ISI in charge of the computer
>>> facility. After a year or so there came to be a term New Computing
>>> Environment to describe the advent of personal computers and the
>>> death of timesharing! I think Keith Uncapher coined the term, tho
>>> maybe Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf had a hand in it. Anyway fast forward
>>> a few years and I was back in Silicon Valley looking to start a
>>> company like my pals at Stanford had been doing. I looked around
>>> and noticed that the Internet was gaining traction but the nascent
>>> companies had not quite got it right. So I convinced Barry Leiner
>>> who was a program manager there in 85/86 to let me convene a 3 day
>>> workshop on TCP/IP protocols to explain them to the hundred or so
>>> implementation teams out there. I got the actual protocol
>>> designers to come to Monterrey California for 3 days. There was no
>>> company name then. I had no idea where this was going then.
>>> Needless to say the event was a success. The researchers learned
>>> of real life problems the early vendors we’re experiencing and the
>>> vendors learned a lot more about the Internet and what worked and
>>> what still needed further steps.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I now had a business of teaching (through others) the vendors
>>> and advanced customers how the Internet works. I needed a name. I
>>> took the old name above and called it Advanced Computing Environment.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> A few years in to this the world really wanted to see working
>>> systems and I decided to try a trade show, with one critical
>>> addition: the systems had to be connected to an actual working
>>> Internet! And while I was on the phone with one of my brilliant
>>> tutor people from BBN, Craig Partridge, as were were concluding
>>> the call he blurted out “I’ll see you at Interop “. I hung up the
>>> phone and called my lawyer to register the name immediately! I
>>> had been calling it The TCP/IP Interoperability Conference and
>>> Exhibition! Ah, simplicity.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> That was in September of 1988. It had 50 vendors and 5000
>>> attendees. In 1990 it had grown to 200 vendors and 30,000
>>> attendees. Clearly this Internet stuff was catching on, eh?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> So I sold the company and stayed on for 5 more years as the PR
>>> guy and growing it into Europe and Asia.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 30 years later it still exists in about 10 locations I. The
>>> world. Not quite the same, but still stressing interoperability.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks for asking, Jack.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Dan
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Cell 650-776-7313
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Thanks Dan!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> There's so much of the history that didn't get recorded in
>>> RFCs and
>>> >>>> such, and mail list archives from that era are rare. We
>>> weren't very
>>> >>>> good about documenting things, especially the "why" of how
>>> decisions
>>> >>>> were made.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> There's plenty of room for more participation! Perhaps you
>>> can provide
>>> >>>> the story behind this artifact of the early Internet?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ACE Coaster
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> That coaster has been sitting on my desk for close to 40
>>> years. The
>>> >>>> lettering is fading, after too many attacks by marauding
>>> coffee mugs
>>> >>>> over the decades, and a few trips to the floor courtesy of a
>>> roaming cat.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The story of ACE, and Interop which followed, is an important
>>> part of
>>> >>>> Internet history. There tends to be a focus on protocols and
>>> >>>> algorithms, but innovations like Interop were, IMHO, equally
>>> important
>>> >>>> to the success of the Internet by making it accessible to the
>>> masses and
>>> >>>> emphasizing the importance of working systems.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Perhaps more important. Tell us the story.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> /Jack
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On 9/5/20 12:10 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
>>> >>>>> Forgot to copy the fantastic list!
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Dan
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Cell 650-776-7313
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> From: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com <mailto:dan at lynch.com>>
>>> >>>>>> Date: September 5, 2020 at 11:42:36 AM PDT
>>> >>>>>> To: Joseph Touch <touch at strayalpha.com
>>> <mailto:touch at strayalpha.com>>
>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway
>>> Protocol)
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Great! These discussions are amazing, considering that
>>> they are being done by the actual inventors of much of the
>>> Internet some 3 or 4 decades later. We were young then, eh? Of
>>> course they must be open to the world. Thank you Noel, Miles,
>>> Brian, Tony, Vint, Jack, and others I’ve forgotten just now.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Dan
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Cell 650-776-7313
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joseph Touch via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> HI, all,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Touch
>>> >>>>>>>>> FYI - we moved the archives here.
>>> >>>>>>>> I've just noticed that the archives are now only
>>> accessible to list members?
>>> >>>>>>> They should have been open. If anything changed recently,
>>> this is the first I heard. Either way, the setting has been
>>> updated to allow public access.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Please let me know if you continue to find otherwise.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Joe (as list admin)
>>> >>>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>> >>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> *****
>>> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society
>>> activities and mailing lists.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
More information about the Internet-history
mailing list