[ih] Interop as part of Internet History (was Re: Fwd: Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway Protocol))
Vint Cerf
vint at google.com
Thu Sep 10 11:32:09 PDT 2020
1. original project name: internetting
2. rfc 675 first use of "internet"
3. catenet used only once in ien #48
v
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> Hi Vint,
>
> I concur that the genesis of TCP was in 1973, and spawned a collection
> of separate projects, e.g., Packet Radio, Atlantic Satellite, etc.
> which along with the ARPANET were forming the core of what we now call
> Internet.
>
> What I was remembering is that the moniker "Internet Project" didn't
> become permanent until the later 70s, with "internet" replacing the
> earlier term "catenet", as described in 1978 in:
>
> http://catenet.org/index.php/IEN_48_-_THE_CATENET_MODEL_FOR_INTERNETWORKING
>
> I recall some meeting, probably 1978/9, where there was a discussion of
> what to call our new conglomeration of networks. The term "catenet" was
> proposed, but the general feeling was that it would cause people to
> envision herds of cats, and the term "internet" achieved the "rough
> consensus" stage as the best candidate for a name. We already had
> running code!
>
> The ICCB/IAB was also a key element of history, especially as the
> creator of the IETF and IRTF. Somewhere I have my notes of the ICCB (or
> was it IAB by then...?) meeting where that happened.
>
> Pandemics provide rare opportunities to dig through old boxes in the
> basement...
>
> /Jack
>
> On 9/10/20 2:55 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:22 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >
> > That "ACE Coaster" was handed out (by Dan, IIRC) at a small (dozen
> > or so
> > people) meeting that Dan called, I think to mostly bounce off ideas
> > about a training/conference company. Again IIRC this happened
> > somewhat
> > before the first actual conference in Monterey, where Dan
> subsequently
> > stole the Internet using chocolate-chip cookies as bribes. Vint
> > never
> > served such cookies!
> >
> > no, but I did offer champagne for winners of the TCP/IP Hackathons.
> >
> >
> > >From my retro-perspective, it was an interesting progression of
> > events.
> >
> > The ARPA "Internet Project" had started in the late 70s with a
> > somewhat
> >
> > no, it started in 1973.
> >
> > disjoint set of network-building projects, and had congealed into a
> > network community, with quarterly meetings.
> >
> > At first, the "TCP Working Group" and the "Internet Working Group"
> met
> > separately. Quickly we noticed that the TCP group kept coming up
> with
> > changes to the IP header, while the IP group saw things that needed
> to
> > be in the TCP header, and everyone in one group wanted to
> > participate in
> > the other, so "layering" was cast aside and the Internet Project as a
> > single group was born.
> >
> > Over a year or two of such quarterly meetings, the size of the
> > membership kept growing, and people had to plead with Vint for a
> > "ticket" to attend.
> >
> > It had become difficult to find a willing host that had a venue big
> > enough to handle the crowd for plenary and breakout sessions. I
> > hosted
> > one at BBN, and learned that it is a very bad idea to host a large
> > meeting in a newly renovated building with lots of free rooms and
> > space,
> > but without first testing to make sure the brand-new sparkling
> > bathrooms
> > actually worked.
> >
> > The logistics of the quarterly meetings were becoming a serious
> > problem. Then Dan stepped in.
> >
> > Instead of a meeting where ARPA and some benefactor host venue
> > paid the
> > costs and necessarily severely limited attendance, Dan rented (I
> > assume
> > it wasn't free!) a hotel, opened up a "ticket booth" to the masses,
> >
> > This is only half correct. Dan indeed opened Internet up to the public
> > but as I recall, the Internet research program continued in parallel.
> > The Internet Configuration Control Board (1979) morphed into the
> > Internet Advisory Board in 1984 with 10 Task Forces after Barry Leiner
> > took over
> > the program management of the Internet Project at DARPA. In 1986, IAB
> > become the Internet Activities Board under Dennis Perry's program
> > management
> > at DARPA. see https://www.iab.org/about/history/IAB and IETF and IRTF
> > continue as
> > does INTEROP after its sale by Dan Lynch to Masayoshi Son (when?)
> >
> > charged attendees a fee that didn't raise too many bean-counters'
> > alarms, and added a show floor for vendors too, for an appropriate
> fee
> > of course. He also recruited many of the people who used to just
> > attend the quarterly Internet project meetings to provide the
> > entertainment for all the attendees, and called it training and
> > program
> > presentations.
> >
> > Not a bad solution to the problem, eh?
> >
> > I recall at first there was just a room with some tables and a
> handful
> > of vendors showing their wares. That turned pretty quickly into a
> > trade
> > show floor in Santa Clara, expanding into Moscone, and before long
> > heading to Vegas when Moscone was just too small.
> >
> > All of this had the overriding mandate that there would be a strong
> > technical focus, a live network, and vendors had to connect their
> > stuff
> > to it. For a few years, I was on the Interop "Program Committee",
> > which
> > met around a big table to decide which papers would be put into the
> > program. It was common to look at a paper, see who was the
> > author, and
> > if there was even a hint of "marketing" present, it quickly went
> > to the
> > reject pile. Sometimes all it took was a look at the authors'
> > titles.
> >
> > I remember a meeting where Dan took a few of us to Moscone, to
> > meet with
> > the powers-that-be about possibly holding Interop there. They were
> > cordial, but IMHO clearly thought this event-they-never-heard-of
> > didn't
> > belong in Moscone. A year later, after blowing out Santa Clara, they
> > were much more receptive. Doing the "MazeWar" throughout the Interop
> > show floor was ... interesting. I checked in to my hotel room on
> > Sunday
> > at noon, and didn't get back until Tuesday night. After a few
> > years in
> > Moscone, it had become too small for Interop, so it was off to Vegas.
> >
> > Fun times. Interop was, IMHO, critical to getting the Internet
> > out into
> > the real world. Nobody else showed products actually working, and
> > that
> > matters to the people who approve the POs.
> >
> > But it's a good thing Dan didn't have more of the used-car-salesman
> > genes. Otherwise we would have all left Interop each year with a new
> > vehicle. Internet-ready, of course.
> >
> > You were wrong, Dan. IMHO, you could have gotten more than 50%....
> >
> > /Jack Haverty
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/8/20 2:48 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
> > > Craig, I think you did not copy the list. And while I’m at it,
> > a small edit. I paid the tutors 15% , a full 50% more than the
> > competition. I also charged everybody 50% more than the
> > competition because I felt it was worth it! I even charged the
> > vendors 50% more than the competition. I turned out that I was right.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> > >
> > > Begin forwarded message:
> > >
> > >> From: Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net
> > <mailto:craig at tereschau.net>>
> > >> Date: September 8, 2020 at 1:14:05 PM PDT
> > >> To: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com <mailto:dan at lynch.com>>
> > >> Cc: Craig Partridge via Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > >> Subject: Re: [ih] Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway
> > Protocol)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dan was kind enough to mention me, which makes it a little
> > harder to send this note but I'll do it anyway.
> > >>
> > >> I think Dan underplays how radical Interop was. Vendors had to
> > connect their equipment to the show network. There was a team of
> > Internet wizards who helped setup the show network for each show.
> > (I recall stories of laying things out on netting in a warehouse
> > so that it could easily be transferred to the show floor). But it
> > meant products actually worked.
> > >>
> > >> And then there was the education component, which as Dan tells,
> > started things. Dan took the view that he tried to hire the top
> > instructors in the field and compensate them properly. At a time
> > when competitors were paying 10% of the gross or $2K, whichever
> > was less, Dan paid $2K or 10% of the gross, whichever was more.
> > That meant Interop's courses, instead of being taught by a grad
> > student or a professor trying out a new course idea, were taught
> > by folks like Doug Comer and Scott Bradner and Radia Perlman,
> > teaching their areas of expertise. As a result, the educational
> > program was immense -- many thousands of students. And because
> > the instructors were already in town, Dan could recruit us to come
> > do a panel session for the main program as well. The panels were
> > often also huge. (I still remember a session I led that included
> > Dave Clark and a couple of other key folks -- the room was packed
> > -- probably 5,000 people -- and was so jammed that someone stepped
> > on the tablecloth for the projector, dumping all our slides [this
> > was pre-Powerpoint real-time projection] on the floor! So I had
> > to talk w/o slides while the other speakers ran to the back to
> > reinsert their slides!).
> > >>
> > >> Attending Interop was a full week affair -- you got trained and
> > then went to the showfloor and conference sessions, while grabbing
> > a handful of the old Doubletree cookies (twice the size they are
> > today) during the breaks.
> > >>
> > >> The transitions in size were wild. We went from Monterrey, to
> > the Santa Clara TechMart, to the San Jose Convention center to the
> > Moscone Center in SF in rapid succession.
> > >>
> > >> Craig
> > >>
> > >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 12:52 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>> SoJack, you are asking me to recount how Interop came to be. I
> > shall do that as quickly as I can here.
> > >>>
> > >>> In the early 80s I was at ISI in charge of the computer
> > facility. After a year or so there came to be a term New Computing
> > Environment to describe the advent of personal computers and the
> > death of timesharing! I think Keith Uncapher coined the term, tho
> > maybe Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf had a hand in it. Anyway fast forward
> > a few years and I was back in Silicon Valley looking to start a
> > company like my pals at Stanford had been doing. I looked around
> > and noticed that the Internet was gaining traction but the nascent
> > companies had not quite got it right. So I convinced Barry Leiner
> > who was a program manager there in 85/86 to let me convene a 3 day
> > workshop on TCP/IP protocols to explain them to the hundred or so
> > implementation teams out there. I got the actual protocol
> > designers to come to Monterrey California for 3 days. There was no
> > company name then. I had no idea where this was going then.
> > Needless to say the event was a success. The researchers learned
> > of real life problems the early vendors we’re experiencing and the
> > vendors learned a lot more about the Internet and what worked and
> > what still needed further steps.
> > >>>
> > >>> I now had a business of teaching (through others) the vendors
> > and advanced customers how the Internet works. I needed a name. I
> > took the old name above and called it Advanced Computing Environment.
> > >>>
> > >>> A few years in to this the world really wanted to see working
> > systems and I decided to try a trade show, with one critical
> > addition: the systems had to be connected to an actual working
> > Internet! And while I was on the phone with one of my brilliant
> > tutor people from BBN, Craig Partridge, as were were concluding
> > the call he blurted out “I’ll see you at Interop “. I hung up the
> > phone and called my lawyer to register the name immediately! I
> > had been calling it The TCP/IP Interoperability Conference and
> > Exhibition! Ah, simplicity.
> > >>>
> > >>> That was in September of 1988. It had 50 vendors and 5000
> > attendees. In 1990 it had grown to 200 vendors and 30,000
> > attendees. Clearly this Internet stuff was catching on, eh?
> > >>>
> > >>> So I sold the company and stayed on for 5 more years as the PR
> > guy and growing it into Europe and Asia.
> > >>>
> > >>> 30 years later it still exists in about 10 locations I. The
> > world. Not quite the same, but still stressing interoperability.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for asking, Jack.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Dan
> > >>>
> > >>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks Dan!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There's so much of the history that didn't get recorded in
> > RFCs and
> > >>>> such, and mail list archives from that era are rare. We
> > weren't very
> > >>>> good about documenting things, especially the "why" of how
> > decisions
> > >>>> were made.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There's plenty of room for more participation! Perhaps you
> > can provide
> > >>>> the story behind this artifact of the early Internet?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ACE Coaster
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That coaster has been sitting on my desk for close to 40
> > years. The
> > >>>> lettering is fading, after too many attacks by marauding
> > coffee mugs
> > >>>> over the decades, and a few trips to the floor courtesy of a
> > roaming cat.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The story of ACE, and Interop which followed, is an important
> > part of
> > >>>> Internet history. There tends to be a focus on protocols and
> > >>>> algorithms, but innovations like Interop were, IMHO, equally
> > important
> > >>>> to the success of the Internet by making it accessible to the
> > masses and
> > >>>> emphasizing the importance of working systems.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Perhaps more important. Tell us the story.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> /Jack
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On 9/5/20 12:10 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
> > >>>>> Forgot to copy the fantastic list!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Dan
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com <mailto:dan at lynch.com>>
> > >>>>>> Date: September 5, 2020 at 11:42:36 AM PDT
> > >>>>>> To: Joseph Touch <touch at strayalpha.com
> > <mailto:touch at strayalpha.com>>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway
> > Protocol)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Great! These discussions are amazing, considering that
> > they are being done by the actual inventors of much of the
> > Internet some 3 or 4 decades later. We were young then, eh? Of
> > course they must be open to the world. Thank you Noel, Miles,
> > Brian, Tony, Vint, Jack, and others I’ve forgotten just now.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Dan
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joseph Touch via
> > Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> HI, all,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa via
> > Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Touch
> > >>>>>>>>> FYI - we moved the archives here.
> > >>>>>>>> I've just noticed that the archives are now only
> > accessible to list members?
> > >>>>>>> They should have been open. If anything changed recently,
> > this is the first I heard. Either way, the setting has been
> > updated to allow public access.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Please let me know if you continue to find otherwise.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Joe (as list admin)
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>> --
> > >>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> *****
> > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society
> > activities and mailing lists.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
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> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
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