[ih] Interop as part of Internet History (was Re: Fwd: Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway Protocol))

Thu Sep 10 11:30:32 PDT 2020

thanks dan, i had forgotten the ziff-davis step

v

On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:10 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Jack, you have a remarkable memory. A few edits.
>
> The chocolate chip cookies at the Doubletree Hotel in Monterey were
> definitely addictive. I was lucky when we moved to Santa Clara and there
> was a Doubletree Hotel there.
>
> Because I was a computer center guy I knew what the buyers wanted to see
> and hear. No marketing hype, just technical details, or speeds and feeds as
> it was called in those days. Price, performance and delivery was all we
> wanted to see.
>
> I remember that for a few years Interop facilitated the IETF meetings
> because it was easy for us (it was our business) and it built an affinity
> with the brain trust of the evolving Internet. Somehow NSF or DARPA
> insisted on paying us for that activity. It was $50k. It certainly cost us
> more than that to do the work, but we didn’t care. After a while I got the
> letter from some bureaucrat saying they wanted to audit the contract.
> Yikes. I had done audit before and they are costly to do. I quickly figured
> out that I could just give back the $50k and there would be no audit!  Much
> cheaper!
>
> Oh, Vint, I sold Interop to Ziff-Davis Publishing. A few years later they
> sold it to SoftBank for a 3-400% profit.
>
> Fun times for many.
>
> Dan
>
> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
>
> > On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:22 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > That "ACE Coaster" was handed out (by Dan, IIRC) at a small (dozen or so
> > people) meeting that Dan called, I think to mostly bounce off ideas
> > about a training/conference company.   Again IIRC this happened somewhat
> > before the first actual conference in Monterey, where Dan subsequently
> > stole the Internet using chocolate-chip cookies as bribes.   Vint never
> > served such cookies!
> >
> > From my retro-perspective, it was an interesting progression of events.
> >
> > The ARPA "Internet Project" had started in the late 70s with a somewhat
> > disjoint set of network-building projects, and had congealed into a
> > network community, with quarterly meetings.
> >
> > At first, the "TCP Working Group" and the "Internet Working Group" met
> > separately.  Quickly we noticed that the TCP group kept coming up with
> > changes to the IP header, while the IP group saw things that needed to
> > be in the TCP header, and everyone in one group wanted to participate in
> > the other, so "layering" was cast aside and the Internet Project as a
> > single group was born.
> >
> > Over a year or two of such quarterly meetings, the size of the
> > membership kept growing, and people had to plead with Vint for a
> > "ticket" to attend.
> >
> > It had become difficult to find a willing host that had a venue big
> > enough to handle the crowd for plenary and breakout sessions.   I hosted
> > one at BBN, and learned that it is a very bad idea to host a large
> > meeting in a newly renovated building with lots of free rooms and space,
> > but without first testing to make sure the brand-new sparkling bathrooms
> > actually worked.
> >
> > The logistics of the quarterly meetings were becoming a serious
> > problem.   Then Dan stepped in.
> >
> > Instead of a meeting where ARPA and some benefactor host venue paid the
> > costs and necessarily severely limited attendance, Dan rented (I assume
> > it wasn't free!) a hotel, opened up a "ticket booth" to the masses,
> > charged attendees a fee that didn't raise too many bean-counters'
> > alarms, and added a show floor for vendors too, for an appropriate fee
> > of course.   He also recruited many of the people who used to just
> > attend the quarterly Internet project meetings to provide the
> > entertainment for all the attendees, and called it training and program
> > presentations.
> >
> > Not a bad solution to the problem, eh?
> >
> > I recall at first there was just a room with some tables and a handful
> > of vendors showing their wares.  That turned pretty quickly into a trade
> > show floor in Santa Clara, expanding into Moscone, and before long
> > heading to Vegas when Moscone was just too small.
> >
> > All of this had the overriding mandate that there would be a strong
> > technical focus, a live network, and vendors had to connect their stuff
> > to it.  For a few years, I was on the Interop "Program Committee", which
> > met around a big table to decide which papers would be put into the
> > program.  It was common to look at a paper, see who was the author, and
> > if there was even a hint of "marketing" present, it quickly went to the
> > reject pile.   Sometimes all it took was a look at the authors' titles.
> >
> > I remember a meeting where Dan took a few of us to Moscone, to meet with
> > the powers-that-be about possibly holding Interop there.  They were
> > cordial, but IMHO clearly thought this event-they-never-heard-of didn't
> > belong in Moscone.  A year later, after blowing out Santa Clara, they
> > were much more receptive.  Doing the "MazeWar" throughout the Interop
> > show floor was ... interesting.  I checked in to my hotel room on Sunday
> > at noon, and didn't get back until Tuesday night.   After a few years in
> > Moscone, it had become too small for Interop, so it was off to Vegas.
> >
> > Fun times.  Interop was, IMHO, critical to getting the Internet out into
> > the real world.  Nobody else showed products actually working, and that
> > matters to the people who approve the POs.
> >
> > But it's a good thing Dan didn't have more of the used-car-salesman
> > genes.  Otherwise we would have all left Interop each year with a new
> > vehicle.  Internet-ready, of course.
> >
> > You were wrong, Dan. IMHO, you could have gotten more than 50%....
> >
> > /Jack Haverty
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 9/8/20 2:48 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
> >> Craig, I think you did not copy the list.  And while I’m at it, a small
> edit.  I paid the tutors 15% , a full 50% more than the competition. I also
> charged everybody 50% more than the competition because I felt it was worth
> it!  I even charged the vendors 50% more than the competition. I turned out
> that I was right.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> >>
> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >>> From: Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net>
> >>> Date: September 8, 2020 at 1:14:05 PM PDT
> >>> To: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com>
> >>> Cc: Craig Partridge via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>> Subject: Re:  [ih] Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway Protocol)
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> Dan was kind enough to mention me, which makes it a little harder to
> send this note but I'll do it anyway.
> >>>
> >>> I think Dan underplays how radical Interop was.  Vendors had to
> connect their equipment to the show network.  There was a team of Internet
> wizards who helped setup the show network for each show.  (I recall stories
> of laying things out on netting in a warehouse so that it could easily be
> transferred to the show floor).  But it meant products actually worked.
> >>>
> >>> And then there was the education component, which as Dan tells,
> started things.  Dan took the view that he tried to hire the top
> instructors in the field and compensate them properly. At a time when
> competitors were paying 10% of the gross or $2K, whichever was less, Dan
> paid $2K or 10% of the gross, whichever was more.  That meant Interop's
> courses, instead of being taught by a grad student or a professor trying
> out a new course idea, were taught by folks like Doug Comer and Scott
> Bradner and Radia Perlman, teaching their areas of expertise.  As a result,
> the educational program was immense -- many thousands of students.  And
> because the instructors were already in town, Dan could recruit us to come
> do a panel session for the main program as well.  The panels were often
> also huge.  (I still remember a session I led that included Dave Clark and
> a couple of other key folks -- the room was packed -- probably 5,000 people
> -- and was so jammed that someone stepped on the tablecloth for the
> projector, dumping all our slides [this was pre-Powerpoint real-time
> projection] on the floor!  So I had to talk w/o slides while the other
> speakers ran to the back to reinsert their slides!).
> >>>
> >>> Attending Interop was a full week affair -- you got trained and then
> went to the showfloor and conference sessions, while grabbing a handful of
> the old Doubletree cookies (twice the size they are today) during the
> breaks.
> >>>
> >>> The transitions in size were wild.  We went from Monterrey, to the
> Santa Clara TechMart, to the San Jose Convention center to the Moscone
> Center in SF in rapid succession.
> >>>
> >>> Craig
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 12:52 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>> SoJack, you are asking me to recount how Interop came to be. I shall
> do that as quickly as I can here.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the early 80s I was at ISI in charge of the computer facility.
> After a year or so there came to be a term New Computing Environment to
> describe the advent of personal computers and the death of timesharing!  I
> think Keith Uncapher coined the term, tho maybe Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf had
> a hand in it. Anyway fast forward a few years and I was back in Silicon
> Valley looking to start a company like my pals at Stanford had been doing.
> I looked around and noticed that the Internet was gaining traction but the
> nascent companies had not quite got it right. So I convinced Barry Leiner
> who was a program manager there in 85/86 to let me convene a 3 day workshop
> on TCP/IP protocols to explain them to the hundred or so implementation
> teams out there. I got the actual protocol designers to come to Monterrey
> California for 3 days. There was no company name then. I had no idea where
> this was going then. Needless to say the event was a success. The
> researchers learned of real life problems the early vendors we’re
> experiencing and the vendors learned a lot more about the Internet and what
> worked and what still needed further steps.
> >>>>
> >>>> I now had a business of teaching (through others) the vendors and
> advanced customers how the Internet works. I needed a name. I took the old
> name above and called it Advanced Computing Environment.
> >>>>
> >>>> A few years in to this the world really wanted to see working systems
> and I decided to try a trade show, with one critical addition: the systems
> had to be connected to an actual working Internet!  And while I was on the
> phone with one of my brilliant tutor people from BBN, Craig Partridge, as
> were were concluding the call he blurted out “I’ll see you at Interop “. I
> hung up the phone and called my lawyer to register the name immediately!  I
> had been calling it The TCP/IP Interoperability Conference and Exhibition!
> Ah, simplicity.
> >>>>
> >>>> That was in September of 1988. It had 50 vendors and 5000 attendees.
> In 1990 it had grown to 200 vendors and 30,000 attendees. Clearly this
> Internet stuff was catching on, eh?
> >>>>
> >>>> So I sold the company and stayed on for 5 more years as the PR guy
> and growing it into Europe and Asia.
> >>>>
> >>>> 30 years later it still exists in about 10 locations I. The world.
> Not quite the same, but still stressing interoperability.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for asking, Jack.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dan
> >>>>
> >>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks Dan!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There's so much of the history that didn't get recorded in RFCs and
> >>>>> such, and mail list archives from that era are rare.  We weren't very
> >>>>> good about documenting things, especially the "why" of how decisions
> >>>>> were made.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There's plenty of room for more participation!   Perhaps you can
> provide
> >>>>> the story behind this artifact of the early Internet?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ACE Coaster
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That coaster has been sitting on my desk for close to 40 years.  The
> >>>>> lettering is fading, after too many attacks by marauding coffee mugs
> >>>>> over the decades, and a few trips to the floor courtesy of a roaming
> cat.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The story of ACE, and Interop which followed, is an important part of
> >>>>> Internet history.  There tends to be a focus on protocols and
> >>>>> algorithms, but innovations like Interop were, IMHO, equally
> important
> >>>>> to the success of the Internet by making it accessible to the masses
> and
> >>>>> emphasizing the importance of working systems.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps more important.   Tell us the story.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /Jack
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 9/5/20 12:10 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>> Forgot to copy the fantastic list!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com>
> >>>>>>> Date: September 5, 2020 at 11:42:36 AM PDT
> >>>>>>> To: Joseph Touch <touch at strayalpha.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re:  [ih] List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway Protocol)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Great!  These discussions are amazing, considering that they are
> being done by the actual inventors of much of the Internet some 3 or 4
> decades later. We were young then, eh?  Of course they must be open to the
> world. Thank you Noel, Miles, Brian, Tony, Vint, Jack, and others I’ve
> forgotten just now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joseph Touch via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> HI, all,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Touch
> >>>>>>>>>> FYI - we moved the archives here.
> >>>>>>>>> I've just noticed that the archives are now only accessible to
> list members?
> >>>>>>>> They should have been open. If anything changed recently, this is
> the first I heard. Either way, the setting has been updated to allow public
> access.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Please let me know if you continue to find otherwise.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe (as list admin)
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> *****
> >>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities
> and mailing lists.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
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> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>

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