[ih] Recently restored and a small ARPANET was run using simulated IMP hardware. (was: TTL [was Exterior Gateway Protocol])
David Walden
dave.walden.family at gmail.com
Tue Sep 8 04:21:08 PDT 2020
Searching for "packet radio project" at the CHM gives 1800 results, the first page of results being SRI reports.
On September 8, 2020, at 5:49 AM, vinton cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
i wonder whether CHM has cataloged what it has been given in searchable
form?
i also wonder whether dense crowds of wifi users creates a big
desensing risk?
v
On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 10:55 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> Hi Jack,
> This might not have been clear. I worked for BBN on the packet radio
> project before SRI. As you mentioned the packet radio work was in Div4 at
> BBN. I decided to move to California and took a job at SRI.
> Besides ARPA, SRI had contracts with other military organizations for the
> networking research . The Army (CECOM) funded a lot of the work. I think a
> couple projects I worked on had funding from the Navy and the Air Force
> (Rome Labs? ) but I could be wrong where the dollars actually came from.
>
> Unfortunately I don't remember any contract numbers right now. Much of the
> information on what was done is in the monthly, quarterly and final reports
> delivered to the contracting organization. I think there were only a
> handful of conference papers and a few talks here and there.
> I have tried to use the DTIC site to find information on the SAC
> Strategic C3 Experiments (Mobile IP work) and I did find it hard to locate
> what I was looking for. I have no idea how SRI handled the deliverables
> once a project was over. I did find documentation on the Port Expander
> awhile ago but it wasn't very detailed. If you would like a copy, I will
> see if I can find it again. I think it helps to know the project name when
> searching for information.
> barbara
>
> On Monday, September 7, 2020, 11:00:48 AM PDT, Jack Haverty via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Barbara,
>
> Packet Radio artifacts of any kind were elusive (at least in 2013 when
> we searched), except for a few conference papers. Specifically, we were
> looking for things like QTRs or other project reports that SRI
> presumably submitted to ARPA, analogous to the BBN QTRs. We found a
> lot of the BBN reports online at DTIC, but little from SRI. I'm not
> sure, but the BBN QTRs may have been found by the search engine because
> I had the BBN/ARPA contract numbers involved, but I didn't know the
> appropriate contract numbers for the SRI (or any other) contracts.
>
> Not much detail about Fuzzballs, or Port Expanders, or other such boxes
> that were prolific in the early days of the Internet. Google wasn't
> much help, but that may be from lack of knowledge in how to best use the
> search mechanisms.
>
> IMHO, there wasn't as much collaboration between the ARPANET and Packet
> Radio as there was with the Internet/Gateway work at BBN.
>
> BBN had internal structure that to some extent influenced the
> "technology transfer" between projects. In particular there were two
> "divisions", Div4 and Div6, that both did similar computer and network
> research. Div6 was where the ARPANET project began and evolved to an
> operational service over the ten years preceding the Internet, so there
> was a lot of operational experience and war wounds there. Div4 was
> where the Packet Radio work was done, along with lots of other things,
> such as TENEX. Both were very competent, but had different experiences.
>
> Although the technical staffs of the two divisions got along pretty
> well, pragmatic details limited collaboration. We were physically
> located in separate buildings, so hallway encounters and casual
> interactions were less likely. Interesting "teaching events" that
> occurred in the ARPANET propagated quickly through Div6 where the NOC
> was literally just down the hallway, less so to Div4. Cross-charging
> (charging your time to the other Division's project) was possible but
> discouraged.
>
> The "Gateway Project" began in Div4, where Ginny Strazisar implemented
> the first gateway; I don't know if that was a separate
> project/contract, or just a part of the Packet Radio contract at the
> time. Some few years later, as it became desirable for the Internet to
> stabilize and become an operational service, ARPA moved the gateway work
> from Div4 to Div6, folding it into the "Internet Project" contract that
> was my responsibility at the time (it included various TCP
> implementations, SATNET, WBNET, Remote Site Maintenance, etc.).
>
> That was the point where we started injecting "ARPANET DNA" into the
> Internet/gateways, blatantly adopting ARPANET techniques as the most
> obvious (to us in Div6) way to get the Internet to be as managed as the
> ARPANET.
>
> I know little about the internal mechanisms of the Packet Radio
> environment. But it did not move to Div6 (which became BBN
> Communications Corp at some point) at least during my involvement
> (roughly 1978-1990).
>
> So I suspect that the Packet Radio system did not reuse much of the IMP
> ideas/techniques, especially the ones that were rather mundane and not
> well documented or publicized (such as the "reload from neighbor"
> idea). The Packet Radio QTRs, if they survive, would probably answer
> that question.
>
> I've often wondered, from a historical perspective now, to what extent
> things like internal corporate structure and organizational decisions
> influenced the design and implementation of the Internet.
>
> /Jack
>
>
> On 9/6/20 11:44 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
> > Because of BBN's involvement, I am thinking Packet Radio might have
> reused many of the same ideas as the IMPs for loading new software from
> another node. Do you know this was not the case? I never needed to look at
> that part of the code.
> > I remember using XNET for examination of the Packet Radio station. Given
> your recent email it sounds like you looked for old Packet Radio station
> software and couldn't find it. Is this correct?
> > I don't think Rockwell released their Packet Radio software in the late
> 70s/early 80s. I would have to contact Rockwell if I thought bugs required
> a change to a packet radio, versus the Packet Radio station, when I worked
> at BBN. I know several years later SRI did get some of their code because
> I implemented one of the new routing algorithms ( I am pretty sure it was
> called threshold distance vector routing if anyone is interested). BTW, I
> think the software may have only been tested in a simulator due to delays
> in the delivery of the LPR (Low Cost Packet Radio). This was during the
> SURAN program.
> > The first demo of Packet Radio and ARPANET in 1976 involved submitting
> the status report. Don Nielson would probably remember if that was done
> through anything like email. Below is a link to an article that discusses
> this event. The text from the article mentions email but more importantly
> it has a link to a podcast with Don. I didn't know this podcast existed so
> I still need to listen to it. I can see why you might think the report
> submission may have been done by using a telnet connection to a SRI host
> that had email.
> >
> https://hightechforum.org/happy-birthday-internet-richard-bennett-talks-with-don-nielson/
> > barbara
> > On Sunday, September 6, 2020, 12:39:38 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Geoff - thanks for that bit of history and kudos!
> >
> > I think there's an Internet connection in your experience. I'm not sure
> > what, legally, "wireless email" means. But I suspect that email was
> > being sent and received, wirelessly, well before even 1982, if only to
> > and from the SRI Packet Radio van that could occasionally be seen then
> > roaming around the Bay Area.
> >
> > Of course, technically, that probably involved a Telnet connection,
> > wirelessly, to some PDP-10 running an email program. But, legally, it
> > might meet the court accepted definition of "wireless email". I
> > learned from the lawyers that much of litigation involves arguing about
> > the meaning of words and phrases.
> >
> > So, perhaps someone could have looked for mouldering Packet Radio (aka
> > PR) hardware and software, and demonstrated wireless email circa 1978
> > over one or more PRNETs.
> >
> > Sadly, although I was pretty sure that interesting "prior art" would be
> > found in the PR environment, we had little success 7 years ago while
> > trying to find anything that might show exactly how PR equipment
> > "downloaded instructions".
> >
> > There's remarkably little readily discoverable material about lots of
> > the computer and network systems of the 70s/80s, especially internal
> > details of operation, tools, procedures, etc. Plenty of stuff on
> > Routing, but little on other mechanisms, or other types of networks of
> > that era, at least that the lawyers and I could find. IMHO, that's a
> > huge gap even in Internet History, since the Internet did not evolve in
> > a vacuum, was itself composed of more than the ARPANET, and was
> > surrounded by competitors (remember multiprotocol routers).
> >
> > /Jack
> >
> > On 9/6/20 11:58 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote:
> >> Jack, you're a Most Eloquent purveyor of history and that WHY explain
> >> is exactly what yours truly was hoping for... Thank You for the
> >> elucidation! :D
> >>
> >> along the lines vis-a-vis:
> >>
> >> So, that's a bit about the "Why", for history to ponder. The
> >> experience got me wondering about the "patent history" of The
> >> Internet. Clearly there was a lot of innovation in those days.
> >> My recollection is that very little was patented, even if only to
> >> make sure no one else could. Maybe someone will document the
> >> patent-related aspects of Internet History someday.
> >>
> >> please excuse/pardon this immodesty: yours truly had a kinda similar
> >> "lawyered" experience with respect to WHO was the purported
> >> "inventor"/originator of wireless email in a patent litigation case
> >> and the "challenge" of finding/presenting any extant legally
> >> submissive "artifactual proof" to that effect -- for which John
> >> Markoff at the New York Times wrote about in this 2006 article:
> >>
> >> In Silicon Valley, a Man Without a Patent
> >>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/technology/in-silicon-valley-a-man-without-a-patent.html
> >>
> >> for which some links of "proof" exist -- for some stuff mentioned in
> >> the above NYT article -- on my website https://iconia.com/ under
> >> "wireless email" (in case any historians are duly interested)...
> >>
> >> geoff
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 8:24 AM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org
> >> <mailto:jack at 3kitty.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Geoff,
> >>
> >> Dave's IEEE paper does an excellent job of the
> >> Who/What/When/Where. He's right that it was about 7 years ago.
> >> Time flies... but I guess it's still "recent" when viewed as part
> >> of Internet History.
> >>
> >> For the curious, I can add a bit more about the Why.
> >>
> >> Sometime in 2013, I got an email out of the blue from Charlie
> >> Neuhauser, someone I didn't recognize or remember at all, asking
> >> if I was the "Jack Haverty" who authored IEN 158 - documenting the
> >> XNET protocol in 1980. Figuring that the statute of limitations
> >> must have expired after 30+ years, I cautiously said yes. Over
> >> the next few days, he hooked me up with the lawyers who were
> >> involved in a patent dispute - one that had been going on for
> >> several decades by then. In fact, the patent involved had been
> >> issued, ran its 17 year lifetime, and expired, but there was still
> >> litigation in process about whether or not the patent was valid,
> >> and 17 years of violations were alleged cause for compensation in
> >> the many millions. For the next few years I was involved in the
> >> battles, working with the lawyers scattered all over the country.
> >> I never met any of them. All our work was done by email and
> >> telephone. No Zoom then or we probably would have used it.
> >>
> >> The core issue in the patent battle concerned "downloading
> >> instructions", mechanisms such as would be involved in patching or
> >> issuing new software releases to remote equipment. XNET seemed
> >> to them to possibly have something to do with that, hence the
> >> interest. The goal was to find hard evidence that such procedures
> >> were being done by 1980, which would prove that prior art
> >> existed. Hard evidence literally means "hard" - opinions help,
> >> but physical equipment and running code is much more impressive in
> >> a courtroom.
> >>
> >> They hadn't found any XNET artifacts, and I couldn't point them to
> >> any surviving implementations. But I pointed out that my XNET
> >> document simply captured the technology that we "stole" from the
> >> ARPANET IMP experience, and that the IMPs routinely "downloaded
> >> code" from their neighbors and the NOC all during the life of the
> >> ARPANET.
> >>
> >> Since the IMPs had existed since the early 70s, that really
> >> sparked their interest, and a search (worldwide) ensued to find
> >> old IMPs, in the hope that just maybe one of them still had the
> >> IMP software in its magnetic-core memory. A few IMPs were
> >> located, but none were functional. The one in the museum at UCLA
> >> seemed promising, but the owners were reluctant to even hook it up
> >> to power after sitting idle for so many years, expecting it might
> >> go up in smoke.
> >>
> >> Then I learned from the BBN alumni mailing list that an ancient
> >> IMP listing had been found in a basement. The story from that
> >> point is pretty well described in Dave's paper.
> >>
> >> Personally, it was an interesting experience. I worked
> >> extensively with one lawyer in San Diego. I taught him how
> >> computers and networks actually work; he taught me a lot about the
> >> legal system regarding patents. IMHO, they are equally
> >> convoluted and complex when viewed from the other's perspective.
> >>
> >> I also learned a lot about the IMP code, which I had never even
> >> looked at while I was at BBN. One task I took on was to
> >> exhaustively analyze the parts of the IMP code that implemented
> >> the "download new instructions" functionality, writing up an
> >> instruction-by-instruction description of how the code
> >> accomplished that by interacting with a neighboring IMP. It was
> >> a very clever design, and extremely tight code, even including
> >> self-modifying instructions. Not easy to figure out (or explain
> >> in language amenable to a non-technical judge or jury). So there
> >> was great interest in being able to demonstrate the code in action
> >> using real software from the 70s and hardware simulators.
> >> Tangible evidence is much better than even expert opinions.
> >>
> >> The whole legal project came to a sudden end just a few months
> >> prior to the first court date. I was looking forward to going
> >> to Delaware (legal action was filed in Federal court in Delaware),
> >> and finally meeting some of the people. But the parties settled
> >> suddenly, the case was dropped, and AFAIK the patent question was
> >> never resolved.
> >>
> >> So, that's a bit about the "Why", for history to ponder. The
> >> experience got me wondering about the "patent history" of The
> >> Internet. Clearly there was a lot of innovation in those days.
> >> My recollection is that very little was patented, even if only to
> >> make sure no one else could. Maybe someone will document the
> >> patent-related aspects of Internet History someday.
> >>
> >> /Jack Haverty
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/6/20 12:34 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote:
> >>> jack, you've raised my curiosity with respect to:
> >>>
> >>> ... There
> >>> *is* ARPANET IMP software which was recently restored and a
> small
> >>> ARPANET was run using simulated IMP hardware.
> >>>
> >>> Who/What/When/Where/Why?
> >>>
> >>> geoff
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 8:40 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> >>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Lukasz,
> >>>
> >>> I think that the earliest implementations of TTL called it
> >>> "Time", but
> >>> I'm not aware that anyone actually used time per se in
> >>> gateways, at
> >>> least in the early days (1977-1982 or so).
> >>>
> >>> TCP implementations didn't do anything with TTL other than
> >>> set it on
> >>> outgoing datagrams, and at least in my implementation (TCP
> >>> for Unix), it
> >>> was just set to some arbitrary value. Until we had some data
> >>> from
> >>> experimentation it was hard to evaluate ideas about what
> >>> routers, hosts,
> >>> et al should actually do. The early TCPs did use time in
> >>> handling
> >>> retransmission timers, and there was work a bit later to
> >>> incorporate
> >>> time more powerfully into TCP behavior, e.g., Van Jacobson's
> >>> work.
> >>>
> >>> The early gateways, IIRC, used the terminology "time", but in
> >>> practice
> >>> used just hop counts, since time measurements were difficult to
> >>> implement. The exception to that may be Dave Mills'
> >>> Fuzzballs, since
> >>> Dave was the implementor most interested in time and making
> >>> precise
> >>> measurements of network behavior. I *think* Dave may have
> >>> used time
> >>> values and delay-based routing amongst his "fuzzies".
> >>>
> >>> The BBN doc you're seeking might have been one of many that
> >>> discussed
> >>> the ARPANET internal mechanisms, e.g., ones with titles like
> >>> "Routing
> >>> Algorithm Improvements". The ARPANET internal mechanisms did
> >>> use time.
> >>> It was fairly simple in the IMPs, since the delay introduced
> >>> by the
> >>> synchronous communications lines could be easily predicted,
> >>> and the
> >>> other major component of delay was the time spent in queues,
> >>> which could
> >>> be measured fairly easily.
> >>>
> >>> I even found one BBN ARPANET Project QTR from circa 1975 that
> >>> discussed
> >>> the merits of the new-fangled TCP proposal that some
> >>> professor had
> >>> published -- and seemed to conclude it couldn't possibly work.
> >>>
> >>> My involvement in implementations of TCPs and gateways lasted
> >>> through
> >>> about mid-1983, so I don't know much of the detail of
> subsequent
> >>> implementations. For the various BBN gateway/router
> >>> equipment, Bob
> >>> Hinden would probably be a good source. The other major
> >>> early player
> >>> was MIT and spinoffs (Proteon), which perhaps Noel Chiappa will
> >>> remember. There's also at least one paper on the Fuzzballs
> >>> which may
> >>> have some details.
> >>>
> >>> One thing I'd advise being careful of is the various
> >>> "specifications" in
> >>> RFCs. Much of the wording in those was intentionally
> >>> non-prescriptive
> >>> (use of "should" or "may" instead of "must"), to provide as
> much
> >>> latitude as possible for experimentation with new ideas,
> >>> especially
> >>> within an AS. The Internet was an Experiment.
> >>>
> >>> Also, there was no consistent enforcement mechanism to assure
> >>> that
> >>> implementations actually even conformed to the "must"
> >>> elements. So
> >>> Reality could be very different from Specification.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know of any gateway implementations that have
> >>> survived. There
> >>> *is* ARPANET IMP software which was recently restored and a
> small
> >>> ARPANET was run using simulated IMP hardware. I still have
> >>> a ~1979
> >>> listing of the TCP I wrote for Unix, but haven't scanned it
> >>> into digital
> >>> form yet.
> >>>
> >>> Jack
> >>>
> >>> On 9/5/20 7:38 PM, Łukasz Bromirski wrote:
> >>> > Jack,
> >>> >
> >>> > I was reading a lot of old BBN PDFs thanks to all good souls
> on
> >>> > this list that post nice URLs from time to time.
> >>> >
> >>> > I remember reading in at least one of them, that apparently
> >>> first
> >>> > TCP/IP implementations were indeed using TTL as literally
> >>> “time”,
> >>> > not hop count. I believe there somewhere there between PDP
> docs
> >>> > and ARPANET docs I’ve read something to the effect “and
> >>> from this
> >>> > time we changed from measuring time to simply count routing
> >>> hops”.
> >>> > Of course, right now google-fu is failing me.
> >>> >
> >>> > Quoting RFC 1009 that was already brought up, there’s quite
> >>> > direct “definition” of the field:
> >>> >
> >>> > "4.8. Time-To-Live
> >>> >
> >>> > The Time-to-Live (TTL) field of the IP header is defined
> >>> to be a
> >>> > timer limiting the lifetime of a datagram in the
> >>> Internet. It is
> >>> > an 8-bit field and the units are seconds. This would
> >>> imply that
> >>> > for a maximum TTL of 255 a datagram would time-out after
> >>> about 4
> >>> > and a quarter minutes. Another aspect of the definition
> >>> requires
> >>> > each gateway (or other module) that handles a datagram to
> >>> > decrement the TTL by at least one, even if the elapsed
> >>> time was
> >>> > much less than a second. Since this is very often the
> >>> case, the
> >>> > TTL effectively becomes a hop count limit on how far a
> >>> datagram
> >>> > can propagate through the Internet."
> >>> >
> >>> > Were there any implementations that survived somewhere and
> >>> actually
> >>> > did exactly that - counted actual time/processing delay,
> >>> not hops?
> >>> > And if it took 2s to process packet, did they really
> >>> decrement TTL
> >>> > by two?
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks for any pointers,
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com <mailto:Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com>
> >>> living as The Truth is True
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com <mailto:Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com>
> >> living as The Truth is True
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
> --
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> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
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