[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)

[Jack Haverty]

FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid
Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea.
/Jack

On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> Ho Ho Ho,
>
> You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid
> Internet Engineers.
>
> MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.   We
> (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard,
> since our role was just to provide the comm link.
>
> I do recall one event.   There was some kind of important demo coming
> up, and the system wasn't working.  So all of the contractors involved
> (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech
> support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson.
>
> A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego
> Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable
> by any commercial air.  We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just
> can't pull out.   But he told a great story on his return.
>
> That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a
> shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been
> assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian
> Ocean.   Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no
> windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng
> non-stop flight.   In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at
> the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no
> call button for the flight attendant.
>
> A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson,
> which was somewhere close by.  He and the other engineers (who must have
> had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the
> demo was back in business.  MATNET was fine, something else wasn't
> working, but all was well.
>
> Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty
> fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really
> was in the Middle Of Nowhere).  Well out of helicopter range. 
>
> So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind,
> and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.   After
> that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat.
>
> The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?"
>
> Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really
> good trips.   Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was
> another possible good place for an Internet demo.
>  
> Enjoy,
> /Jack Haverty
>
>
> On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>>  Happy Holidays! 
>> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments.
>> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.  This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,  Indiana location.  I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.  I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).   CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.  Paul Sass was one key person.
>> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.   I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.   We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.   I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty.
>> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded  the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).  Things started happening in 1994  but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.  SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort.
>> barbara
>>
>>     On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
>>  
>>  Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
>>
>> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the
>> early 80s.  For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects
>> under my responsibility at BBN.
>>
>> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
>> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by
>> the NOC at BBN.   That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny
>> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al)
>> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a
>> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
>>
>> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl
>> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use
>> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.  So it was functional
>> only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
>>
>> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.  Instead
>> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets,
>> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.  Both were still in the "research"
>> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered
>> "operational" at the time.
>>
>> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
>> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the
>> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control,
>> Intelligence).
>>
>> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which
>> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.  It
>> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in
>> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon,
>> Intelligence organizations, etc.   That's what drove our thinking and
>> decisions.
>>
>> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. 
>> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. 
>> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?   All of that was a driver
>> for research efforts.
>>
>> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were
>> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research
>> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven)
>> Internet.
>>
>> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects
>> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.  
>> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing
>> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.  
>> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".   I'm
>> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g.,
>> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's
>> operational systems.   But I've not run across much written about that
>> aspect of Internet History.
>>
>> /Jack Haverty
>>
>> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN
>>> supplied the network.
>>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI.
>>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start
>>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know?
>>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until
>>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based
>>>     clone of
>>>     the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of
>>>     the Internet.  Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite
>>>     IMP),
>>>     with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
>>>
>>>     Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for
>>>     MATNET. 
>>>     I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl
>>>     Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the
>>>     time. 
>>>     Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the
>>>     Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.   This was part of ARPA's
>>>     "technology
>>>     transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending
>>>     technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund
>>>     continued research.
>>>
>>>     I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.   But I do recall that
>>>     Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
>>>     investigating that.   IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide
>>>     a way
>>>     to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.   Ken
>>>     Pogran may remember more.
>>>
>>>     At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with
>>>     the Navy projects.  I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have
>>>     been a
>>>     follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology
>>>     suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
>>>     conditions).   Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
>>>
>>>     Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the
>>>     "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories.
>>>
>>>     /Jack Haverty
>>>
>>>     On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>     > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not
>>>     remember) and
>>>     > MATNET (which I do remember)?
>>>     >
>>>     > v
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via
>>>     Internet-history <
>>>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>     >
>>>     >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via
>>>     Internet-history <
>>>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>     >>
>>>     >>>  I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number
>>>     >>> assignment.  It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy.
>>>     We had a
>>>     >>> project called  Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP
>>>     >>> networking when ships were under emission control.  In 1984, I
>>>     gave a
>>>     >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest
>>>     Group Meeting
>>>     >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).  I don't remember
>>>     us asking
>>>     >> for
>>>     >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon
>>>     may have
>>>     >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada
>>>     implementation of
>>>     >>> the gateway at that point in time.  I don't think we had the EMCON
>>>     >> details
>>>     >>> worked out yet.  The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on
>>>     short
>>>     >> notice
>>>     >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
>>>     >>> barbara
>>>     >>>
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Hey Barbara:
>>>     >>
>>>     >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project
>>>     as a new
>>>     >> employee at BBN in 1983.  The job on the BBN side was to figure
>>>     out if
>>>     >> different network topologies worked more or less well for
>>>     shipboard command
>>>     >> centers.  As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got
>>>     TCP/IP working
>>>     >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to
>>>     something else,
>>>     >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working
>>>     on the 80MB
>>>     >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.  Rick Adams at Seismo also
>>>     had a Proteon
>>>     >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.  And I swapped
>>>     email for the
>>>     >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another
>>>     >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments
>>>     noted that
>>>     >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch
>>>     fire feature
>>>     >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel
>>>     >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the
>>>     fastest
>>>     >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much
>>>     to run on
>>>     >> it).
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Craig
>>>     >>
>>>     >> --
>>>     >> *****
>>>     >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society
>>>     activities and
>>>     >> mailing lists.
>>>     >> --
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>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>
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