[ih] Hourglass model question

Fri Jul 5 19:24:00 PDT 2019

With apology, what was USING?

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:23 PM John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:

> Okay, thanks for that clarification. Somewhere I had been told that the
> reason for resource sharing was so ARPA didn’t have to buy lots of
> computing equipment for multiple sites, but they could share it.  And of
> course that included collaboration as well.
>
> If collaboration of people was one of the main goals, why was USING turned
> off? That seemed to be a hot bed of collaboration with great potential.
>
> Take care,
> John
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2019, at 20:48, Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com> wrote:
>
> Your characterization of the Arpanet as focused on lowering the cost of
> research is off the mark.  It was motivated by the desire to increase the
> collaboration and sharing of resources.  “Resources” included people
> resources as well as computational resources.
>
> Steve
>
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2019, at 8:37 PM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks Steve for that. Just to add.
>
> Keep in mind computing was still very small (there was only one or two
> computer conferences a year, when did NCC split into Fall and Spring
> Joint?) The networking field was even smaller. Publishing a paper was
> considerably more work and the criteria considerably higher than they are
> now. A lot of work and a lot of discussing went on that never appeared in
> publications or even in RFCs or other samizdat circulations. (I have all
> sorts of papers from this period that were not part of any even informal
> publication series.
>
> In 1968, Dykstra published his paper on THE and layered OSs. And it was
> all the buzz.  Most, if not all, of the NWG were OS guys. You needed OS
> guys to figure out how to introduce the IMP-Host protocol and then the
> Host-Host on top of that in the OS. By 1970, layer diagrams of IMP-Host,
> Host-Host(NCP), (Telnet, DTP), FTP, RJE were common. (DTP was Data Transfer
> Protocol, the part of FTP that did the actual transfer.)
>
> By 72/3, the layers of Physical, Data Link, Network, Transport from
> CYCLADES were pretty common as well as a general characterization that
> wasn’t specific to a given network. INWG began in 72 after ICCC ’72 and
> these layers were common by then. There is also strong evidence that
> because CYCLADES was building a network to do research on networks (very
> different from what the ARPNET was)*, they had figured out a lot more about
> layers than most of us knew at the time.
>
> John
>
> *Remember the ARPANET was built to lower the cost of research but not
> really to do research on networks. That could be a side benefit and a lot
> of us thought there was a lot to do, but it wasn’t ARPAs main focus for the
> ARPANET. Once it was built, ARPA considered the network part done! (At
> least for awhile they did.) BBN couldn’t take the net whenever they wanted
> to do some experiment. The ARPANET was in a fairly real sense, a production
> network to support ARPA research.
>
> On Jul 5, 2019, at 17:35, Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com> wrote:
>
> Layering was part of the earliest discussions we had in 1968-69.
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:34 PM Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Related but not quite on target.
>>
>> The hourglass/margarita glass is a representation of layering.  And back
>> in 1988 I tried to figure out the origins of the layered model for a
>> collection of networking papers I edited.  At the time, the best answer I
>> found was that layering, from a networking perspective, originated with a
>> paper by Davidson et al. on the ARPANET TELNET protocol from the DATACOM
>> conference in 1977.  It portrays layering as a fan, in which different
>> protocols layer on each other as needed.  But it clearly articulates the
>> notion of layering and how layers interact.  (And there's a narrow window
>> between the 1977 paper and the Cerf/Kahn 1974 paper on TCP/IP, which
>> presumably would have mentioned layering if the concept was in wide use).
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:10 AM Andrew Russell <arussell at arussell.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone -
>>>
>>> You might have seen the CACM featured an article in the most recent
>>> issue “On the Hourglass Model” -
>>> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2019/7/237714-on-the-hourglass-model/fulltext
>>> .
>>>
>>> It’s not a history paper, but it raised a history-related question for
>>> me.  As far as I know the visual representation in question started with a
>>> drawing of a margarita glass in 1979, in the context of an OSI committee
>>> meeting and the 7-layer model. I reproduced the image on page 214 of my
>>> book “Open Standards and the Digital Age” - it’s visible to me here:
>>> https://books.google.com/books?id=jqroAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214.
>>>
>>> My question for the list has 2 parts:
>>> 1) when/where did the margarita glass turn into an hourglass?
>>> 2) when/where did the TCP/IP community borrow it from the OSI community?
>>>  (I’m assuming this is how it happened, would be very interested in
>>> evidence or recollections to the contrary)
>>>
>>> My hunch, without doing a fresh round of research, is that I should look
>>> first to papers by David Clark and co-authors in the 1980s to answer a
>>> third question, which is how this illustrated concept morphed into a
>>> “Theorem” (as the CACM essay puts it).  But that’s just a hunch, and I’d
>>> really appreciate pointers or recollections.
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>> Andy
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>>
>>
>> --
>> *****
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