[ih] When the words Internet was design to survive a nuclear war appeared for the first time?
Barbara Denny
b_a_denny at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 22 20:21:36 PST 2019
It has been a long time since I have thought about, and worked on, Packet Radio and the Reconstitution Protocol. My memory is hazy and I know I haven't pieced together a few things that I wish I remember better. It would be nice to review things with Jim and Zaw-Sing. In 1982, I was still at BBN working on Packet Radio. Radia Perlman may have already left BBN for DEC at that point. I went to work at SRI in the fall of 1983 and I worked on a different project when I first went there.
In poking around the net to try to find more things to refresh my memory, I did come across the site discover.dtic.mil. Most of the information on this effort is in the technical reports we produced for the client. I think the contract went through NASA Ames and meeting attendees were mostly personnel from Rome Labs. Unfortunately, this site contains what they call controlled unclassified documents, but the final report on the Network Reconstitution Protocol is in the public side. The contract dates indicate the effective dates were January 3, 1983 until May 30, 1987 but the period of work covered in the report is slightly shorter. I think the project was called the Strategic C3 Experiments so there may be more information available under that name.
I would like to mention the networking world was very different in the early 80s. I think our approach was constrained by certain requirements at the time. I have the impression we were not allowed to change TCP/IP nor require changes to existing ARPAnet hosts . Using the IP address as a location for routing purposes and an endpoint identifier for TCP connections was a big problem for us but something we could not really address. We had to develop a work around using encapsulation and state-information in the network nodes. Scalability of the protocols was not a big concern. I think people did not envision the Internet would grow as large as it would and we were focused on military use. The protocols involved using a gateway centric architectural approach, rather than network, resulting in injection of more routes in a routing table and using more of the address space for the same number of nodes as I recall. Security was on people's minds but I believe we made use of ICMP redirects to help hosts find the correct exit gateway (aka router) when the topology changed. I also think we thought that having a secure, dynamic DNS was important but out of scope for the project: I believe we used host tables for the experiments.
Now that I have found the report I should refresh my memory so any errors in the above description are mine.
barbara
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Internet History - Commercialization (John Gilmore)
2. Re: Internet History - Commercialization (Vint Cerf)
3. Re: When the words Internet was design to survive a nuclear
war appeared for the first time? thanks (Vint Cerf)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 01:54:51 -0800
From: John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com>
Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History - Commercialization
To: Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com>
Cc: internet history <internet-history at postel.org>
Message-ID: <7964.1550570091 at hop.toad.com>
On 18/02/2019 15:35, Tony Finch wrote:
> > I was wondering what effect KA9Q had on low-end adoption. I turned up
> > later, but I remember stories from early (1992 ish) dial-up commercial
> > Internet users who relied on KA9Q.
=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?= <ocl at gih.com> wrote:
> It was key to the Internet's development in the UK. Cliff Stanford
> started Demon Internet using Phil's KA9Q stack. Without it, dial-up
> Internet access at home/work was just not possible.
We started a prominent San Francisco Bay Area ISP, The Little Garden,
using Phil Karn's KA9Q MSDOS software to handle leased lines and dialup
modems in 2 locations in August 1990. I was one of the techies who
cobbled it together, with a leased line to the very early Alternet, then
we hired Tom Jennings, who had also implemented the FIDOnet, to
professionalize it for growing to serve other sites. It gradually grew
it into a real ISP with ten megabits of upstream connections. The
Little Garden offered the first commercial dialup Internet connections
in Mountain View and San Francisco, CA, and also offered 56Kbit DS0 and
Frame Relay, and 1.5Mbit T1 connections. Because of our libertarian
usage policies, low prices, and solid technical chops, we became the
backbone for dozens of small ISPs in Northern California, like ScruzNet
(Santa Cruz), NBnet (North Bay), etc.
We wouldn't have gotten it off the ground without KA9Q, which was the
only cheap and modifiable way to gateway multiple dialup or nailed-up
modems to the early commercial leased-line Internet. Eventually KA9Q
was too flakey for our level of traffic, and we replaced it with
commercial routers, but that was after a year or two of KA9Q service.
John Gilmore
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:07:39 -0500
From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History - Commercialization
To: John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com>
Cc: internet history <internet-history at postel.org>
Message-ID:
<CAHxHggf5yUE_nRjxShW0TRBoc5F2sXRWFkTMQ-GV6yKD_R_MaA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
nice story - nostalgic too.
v
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:06 AM John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com> wrote:
> On 18/02/2019 15:35, Tony Finch wrote:
> > > I was wondering what effect KA9Q had on low-end adoption. I turned up
> > > later, but I remember stories from early (1992 ish) dial-up commercial
> > > Internet users who relied on KA9Q.
>
> =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?= <ocl at gih.com> wrote:
> > It was key to the Internet's development in the UK. Cliff Stanford
> > started Demon Internet using Phil's KA9Q stack. Without it, dial-up
> > Internet access at home/work was just not possible.
>
> We started a prominent San Francisco Bay Area ISP, The Little Garden,
> using Phil Karn's KA9Q MSDOS software to handle leased lines and dialup
> modems in 2 locations in August 1990. I was one of the techies who
> cobbled it together, with a leased line to the very early Alternet, then
> we hired Tom Jennings, who had also implemented the FIDOnet, to
> professionalize it for growing to serve other sites. It gradually grew
> it into a real ISP with ten megabits of upstream connections. The
> Little Garden offered the first commercial dialup Internet connections
> in Mountain View and San Francisco, CA, and also offered 56Kbit DS0 and
> Frame Relay, and 1.5Mbit T1 connections. Because of our libertarian
> usage policies, low prices, and solid technical chops, we became the
> backbone for dozens of small ISPs in Northern California, like ScruzNet
> (Santa Cruz), NBnet (North Bay), etc.
>
> We wouldn't have gotten it off the ground without KA9Q, which was the
> only cheap and modifiable way to gateway multiple dialup or nailed-up
> modems to the early commercial leased-line Internet. Eventually KA9Q
> was too flakey for our level of traffic, and we replaced it with
> commercial routers, but that was after a year or two of KA9Q service.
>
> John Gilmore
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:38:26 -0500
From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
Subject: Re: [ih] When the words Internet was design to survive a
nuclear war appeared for the first time? thanks
To: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
Cc: internet history <internet-history at postel.org>
Message-ID:
<CAHxHggcdHC72VrHF8yTzC=OyTaDLYS0EKWV-f2v_MwV-RPSdGQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Barbara is right about the SRI role in the SAC tests - I may be
misremembering the reconsittution protocol solutions and would be happy to
get better information from Jim or Zaw-Sing if they are still around. I
think the tests I remember were done in 1982. Charlie Brown was involved as
an Air Force officer at the time.
Vint
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:18 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> I vaguely remember being at a meeting sometime in the mid-80s. Some
> government/military/contractor site, but can't remember where. It was a
> large (15 or 20) group of people, none of whom I knew. They were using
> lots of jargon I didn't recognize too. I had come in a bit late.
>
> One of the terms that cropped up was "New Dets Per Second". I knew what
> bits/second were, and kilobits/sec., and similar networky things, but had
> never heard "New Dets Per Second".
>
> After a while, the meaning became clear from context.... It was actually
> "NuDets/Second", shorthand for "Nuclear Detonations Per Second".
>
> I then finally realized I was in the wrong meeting.
>
> So someone was thinking about such things...
>
> /Jack
> On 2/18/19 6:10 PM, Barbara Denny wrote:
>
> I don't remember Radia Perlman's ideas for supporting network partitioning
> and coalescing.
>
> SRI did have a project where we did a few experiments at SAC demonstrating
> a solution to this problem using the ARPAnet and Packet Radio networks. We
> did go out to Offutt for demonstrations using their aircraft. This was in
> the mid 80's. I also think I may have given a demonstration of the
> protocols during IETF 4 at SRI to a few people.
>
> I believe Zaw-Sing Su and Jim Mathis worked on the design of the
> Reconstitution Protocols. I took part in the development and demonstration
> . Mark Lewis also participated in the project as a developer and maybe more
> since I was not part of the project initially. I am pretty sure there was
> a paper at MILCOM about this work.
>
> I believe there was also a RFP in this same time frame asking for
> solutions to islands of connectivity that may happen as a result of
> military conflict. I worked on the SRI proposal at least twice if my
> memory is correct. (I think there may have been a protest to the original
> award so that is why the second proposal.) I don't remember if this project
> was ever awarded to anyone.
>
> barbara
>
>
> On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 9:26:54 AM PST,
> internet-history-request at postel.org <internet-history-request at postel.org>
> <internet-history-request at postel.org> wrote:
>
>
> Send internet-history mailing list submissions to
> internet-history at postel.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: When did "32" bits for IP register as "not enough"?
> (Craig Partridge)
> 2. Re: Fwd: Re: When the words Internet was design to survive a
> nuclear war appeared for the first time? (John Day)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 09:35:10 -0700
> From: Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] When did "32" bits for IP register as "not enough"?
> To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com>
> Cc: internet history <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CAHQj4Cc_D5Ee4Oj1VTNKCoY3t4iAvLoY1mHRxOf=Smwxk7krjQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Bob:
>
> You are right about the implementations being in parallel for a while. I'm
> going to get the dates slightly wrong but Bill's code came out in 4.1c
> (1982?) and BBN kept maintaining its implementation (Dennis Rockwell and
> then Bob Walsh) until c. 1985. Indeed, as I recall there was a debate c.
> 1985 at DARPA about whether to force Berkeley to use the BBN code (which
> had been modified to use the sockets API, which everyone agreed was better
> -- I had a small part in the port to sockets).
>
> I believe that when the TCP/IP project transitioned to me (c. 1987?), I
> stopped effort on the BBN TCP/IP. I think we had to maintain it a bit as
> we'd licensed it to a workstation vendor (Apollo????). Karen Lam and David
> Waitzman switched to the BSD TCP/IP and we did things like help Steve
> Deering implement multicast and such.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 9:24 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Craig,
> >
> > > On Feb 15, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Important historical nit. I was the manager of the BBN UNIX TCP/IP
> > effort after Rob Gurwitz left (I think Rob inherited it from Jack
> Haverty,
> > but not sure). The BSD stack with sockets *was not written by BBN*. It
> > was written by Bill Joy at Berkeley -- using the earlier BBN 4BSD code
> as a
> > reference. Entirely new code, but originally bug-for-bug compatible
> > (indeed, years later, when a bug was found in the BSD TCP, the BSD folks
> > stood up and said "that's a bug from BBN?)
> >
> > My memory is that they both were maintained in parallel for several
> > years. Also, Bill Joy's TCP stack also had the ?trailers? feature where
> > the headers were at the end of the packet. Documented in RFC893 (
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc893). Probably not so good for packet
> > switching, but better performance on some host implementations. That
> faded
> > away at some point.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
> --
> *****
> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
> mailing lists.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 12:18:27 -0500
> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Fwd: Re: When the words Internet was design to
> survive a nuclear war appeared for the first time?
> To: Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com>
> Cc: internet-history at postel.org
> Message-ID: <32E6E6ED-2C77-47A4-B374-EAB335638B69 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> In the FWIW category, I remember that network partitions (between the East
> and West Coasts) occurred, not often but often enough to be noticeable,
> until the 3rd cross-country line went in. Then they were pretty much a
> rarity, if they occurred at all. Illinois was one of the jumping off points
> between East and West, so perhaps we just noticed them more.
>
> John
>
> > On Feb 16, 2019, at 11:25, Steve Crocker <steve at shinkuro.com> wrote:
> >
> > My brother forwarded the appended thread. It reminded me that I had
> previously been unsuccessful at joining this list, but I am now on the list.
> >
> > Over the years I have heard many times from many different people and
> also seen in print the idea that the Arpanet was motivated and built for
> nuclear survivability. Moreover, Steve Lukasik, the director of (D)ARPA
> for several of the critical years, included this as one of his reasons for
> signing the checks for the Arpanet.
> >
> > I think it will be helpful to make a couple of distinctions regarding
> network survivability. Let me offer two dimensions and at least two levels
> of disruption for each.
> >
> > Equipment outage: When a link or a router becomes unusable, it's
> necessary to route around the loss. It makes a big difference if only a
> few links or routers are down versus a significant fraction are down. In
> normal circumstances, it is expected some lines and some routers will be
> out of service from time to time. In contrast, if there is an attack, the
> outages might be substantial and perhaps purposefully coordinated.
> >
> > Traffic level: In normal operation, the total traffic is within the
> capacity of the network. In extraordinary times, the traffic level surges
> beyond the capacity of the system. Surges happen for various reasons.
> There might be a very popular web site, e.g. the Victoria Secrets incident,
> or a DDoS attack.
> >
> > Arguably the Arpanet design addressed survivability for the case when a
> small number of links or routers were out and traffic levels were normal.
> Alex colorfully describes Frank Heart's concerns for the risks to
> individual IMPs placed in the very risky environments of universities.
> >
> > The Arpanet design did not address the issue of large scale outages nor
> did it include strategies for dealing with overload. In contrast, a
> serious design to address post-nuclear operation would have had to address
> the combination of substantial loss of equipment and a huge spike in urgent
> traffic.
> >
> > In the conversations I've had with Lukasik on this matter, he says he
> had in mind the technology could lead to designs that would have that level
> of survivability, and that it was helpful to include this in defending the
> funding for the network. And, as Vint says, subsequent projects explored
> reconstitution in the event of certain kinds of disconnections. However, I
> believe the level of outages explored in those projects were well below the
> levels that would have occurred in a large scale nuclear confrontation.
> >
> > In 2017, I ran this question past Larry Roberts. His short reply was he
> would have had to connect each IMP to four others instead of only two or
> three others.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [ih] When the words Internet was design to survive a
> > nuclear war appeared for the first time?
> > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:30:36 -0500
> > From: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com <mailto:vint at google.com>>
> > To: Alex McKenzie <aamsendonly396 at gmail.com <mailto:
> aamsendonly396 at gmail.com>>
> > CC: internet history <internet-history at postel.org <mailto:
> internet-history at postel.org>>
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex is essentially correct. Paul Baran's work WAS aimed at post-nuclear
> > survival but he never got to try his ideas out as they
> > were rejected as unimplementable or uninteresting by a circuit-switching
> > oriented Defense Communications Agency.
> >
> > Larry Roberts was clear that the ARPANET was intended to support
> > resource sharing.
> >
> > By the time Bob Kahn and I started working on Internet with its focus on
> > command/control, the issue of survivability
> > was back on the table. The multi-network design contemplated multiple
> > networks operated by distinct entities
> > (in the DoD perspective it was multiple countries or aggregates like
> > NATO) and resilience was important. I went
> > so far as to commission a test in which we flew packet radios in
> > Strategic Air Command aircraft, artificially "broke"
> > the ARPANET up into fragments and re-integrated them through ground to
> > air packet radio connectivity. I was
> > particularly worried about the partitioning of a constituent network
> > which would cause great confusion for the
> > routing algorithm (a source gateway might know know to which "half" of
> > the fragmented network a packet should
> > be sent. My hazy recollection is that Radia Perlman came up with a way
> > to solve that problem that involved
> > creating new autonomous systems out of each "piece" and re-enabling
> > routing algorithms.
> >
> > vint
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:18 PM Alex McKenzie <aamsendonly396 at gmail.com
> <mailto:aamsendonly396 at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:aamsendonly396 at gmail.com <mailto:aamsendonly396 at gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Miles,
> >
> > I believe the emphasis on survivability came from Frank Heart.
> > Building the early ARPAnet was a very risky project, in the sense
> > that there was a tight deadline, it would be easy to see if it
> > worked or not, and most people didn't believe it would work.
> > Frank's reputation was very much on the line. The ruggedized IMP
> > cabinet was part of his emphasis on controlling everything the team
> > could control, to minimize risk. But the particular risks the
> > ruggedized cabinet was intended to protect against were:
> > - careless site personnel, who cared about their own computers but
> > might be expected to stick the IMP in a storage closet where
> > maintenance workers would bump it, and
> > - graduate students who might be inclined to study it, perhaps with
> > destructive results. (Lest this seem outlandish, the TIP in Hawaii
> > was a sore spot of unreliability when I was running the NCC -
> > turned out a graduate student was crashing it every day by taping
> > into its power supply which was just right for his project. The TIP
> > was NOT in a ruggedized box.)
> > The group was not trying to protect against EMP.
> >
> > More generally, if the ARPAnet had been designed to survive a
> > nuclear attack it would have been necessary to insure that the
> > IMP-to_IMP circuits did not go through the small number of Telco
> > offices which made up the Telco backbone. No effort was made to
> > influence the provisioning of these circuits, and it can be presumed
> > that loss of only a few major cities would have resulted in most of
> > the leased lines disappearing.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Alex
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:48 AM Miles Fidelman
> > <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net <mailto:mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
> <mailto:mfidelman at meetinghouse.net <mailto:mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Bernie,
> >
> > On 2/14/19 9:28 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> >
> > > On February 14, 2019 09:13:42 Alejandro Acosta
> > > <alejandroacostaalamo at gmail.com <mailto:
> alejandroacostaalamo at gmail.com>>
> > > <mailto:alejandroacostaalamo at gmail.com <mailto:
> alejandroacostaalamo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Today I was reading some news about Internet and in one of
> > >> them I
> > >> found the phrase (that all of you have listened before):
> > >> "Internet
> > >> (ARPANET) was intended to survive a nuclear war", however, as
> > >> far as I
> > >> know, this is kind of a myth, right?, ARPANET was intended as
> > >> a research
> > >> network and the "war" part if very far away from the thuth.
> > >
> > > my take on that is that there were two lines of thought
> > > leading up to the
> > > ARPAnet. very very roughly: one was paul baran's, who was
> > > thinking
> > > about how the military command and control might be able to
> > > continue functioning in the event of an attack, and JCR
> > > Licklider, who was thinking
> > > about how wide-spread researchers could share resources, ideas
> > > and results
> > > to better collaborate.
> > >
> > > when the ARPAnet got funded by the DoD, Baran's story was the
> > > easier to
> > > understand to the average person, raather than the more
> > > diaphanous idea
> > > of researcher collaboration. so Baran's take kinda caught the
> > > public
> > > imagination, but the reality for those of us working on it was
> > > the it was
> > > {somehow :o)} to be a research tool.
> > >
> > You were involved a lot earlier than I was. Perhaps you could
> > comment on how much folks thought about fault-tolerance in the
> > early days. It's always struck me that things like
> > continuity-of-operations, in the face of node & link outages,
> > and no-single-point-of-failure, were baked in from the
> > beginning. You know - all the stuff that would allow the net to
> > survive everything from backhoes to natural disasters, and
> > coincidentally, nuclear war.
> >
> > On the physical side, the early IMPs were pretty rugged boxes
> > (not so much C/30s and such). Were any of the IMPs built to
> > withstand EMP?
> >
> > Miles
> >
> >
> >
> > -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and
> > practice.
> > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
> >
> > _______
> > internet-history mailing list
> > internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
> <mailto:internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>>
> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> > Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org>
> <mailto:list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org>> for
> > assistance.
> >
> > _______
> > internet-history mailing list
> > internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
> <mailto:internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>>
> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> > Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org>
> <mailto:list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org>> for
> > assistance.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > New postal address:
> > Google
> > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> > Reston, VA 20190
> >
> > --
> > Dave Crocker
> > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > bbiw.net <http://bbiw.net/>
> > <Attached.txt>_______
> > internet-history mailing list
> > internet-history at postel.org
> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
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End of internet-history Digest, Vol 126, Issue 40
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