<html><head></head><body><div class="yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:13px;"><div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><div>It has been a long time since I have thought about, and worked on,
Packet Radio and the Reconstitution Protocol. My memory is hazy and I
know I haven't pieced together a few things that I wish I remember
better. It would be nice to review things with Jim and Zaw-Sing. In
1982, I was still at BBN working on Packet Radio. Radia Perlman may
have already left BBN for DEC at that point. I went to work at
SRI in the fall of 1983 and I worked on a different project when I first
went there. <br></div><div><br></div><div>In poking around the net to
try to find more things to refresh my memory, I did come across the site
discover.dtic.mil. Most of the information on this effort is in the
technical reports we produced for the client. I think the contract went
through NASA Ames and meeting attendees were mostly personnel from Rome
Labs. Unfortunately, this site contains what they call controlled
unclassified documents, but the final report on the Network
Reconstitution Protocol is in the public side. The contract
dates indicate the effective dates were January 3, 1983 until May 30,
1987 but the period of work covered in the report is slightly shorter. I
think the project was called the Strategic C3 Experiments so there may
be more information available under that name.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I
would like to mention the networking world was very different in the
early 80s. I think our approach was constrained by certain requirements
at the time. I have the impression we were not allowed to
change TCP/IP nor require changes to existing ARPAnet hosts . Using the
IP address as a location for routing purposes and an endpoint identifier
for TCP connections was a big problem for us but something we could not really
address. We had to develop a work around using encapsulation and
state-information in the network nodes. Scalability of the protocols
was not a big concern. I think people did not envision the Internet
would grow as large as it would and we were focused on military use.
The protocols involved using a gateway centric architectural approach,
rather than network, resulting in injection of more routes in a routing
table and using more of the address space for the same number of nodes as I recall. Security was on people's minds but I believe we made use of ICMP
redirects to help hosts find the correct exit gateway (aka router) when
the topology changed. I also think we thought that having a secure,
dynamic DNS was important but out of scope for the project: I believe we
used host tables for the experiments.</div><div><br></div><div>Now that I have found the report I should refresh my memory so any errors in the above description are mine.</div><div><br></div>barbara</span><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Re: Internet History - Commercialization (John Gilmore)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2. Re: Internet History - Commercialization (Vint Cerf)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 3. Re: When the words Internet was design to survive a nuclear<br></div><div dir="ltr"> war appeared for the first time? thanks (Vint Cerf)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 01:54:51 -0800<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: John Gilmore <<a href="mailto:gnu@toad.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gnu@toad.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History - Commercialization<br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: internet history <<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:7964.1550570091@hop.toad.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">7964.1550570091@hop.toad.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 18/02/2019 15:35, Tony Finch wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I was wondering what effect KA9Q had on low-end adoption. I turned up<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > later, but I remember stories from early (1992 ish) dial-up commercial<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Internet users who relied on KA9Q.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?= <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> It was key to the Internet's development in the UK. Cliff Stanford<br></div><div dir="ltr">> started Demon Internet using Phil's KA9Q stack. Without it, dial-up<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Internet access at home/work was just not possible.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">We started a prominent San Francisco Bay Area ISP, The Little Garden,<br></div><div dir="ltr">using Phil Karn's KA9Q MSDOS software to handle leased lines and dialup<br></div><div dir="ltr">modems in 2 locations in August 1990. I was one of the techies who<br></div><div dir="ltr">cobbled it together, with a leased line to the very early Alternet, then<br></div><div dir="ltr">we hired Tom Jennings, who had also implemented the FIDOnet, to<br></div><div dir="ltr">professionalize it for growing to serve other sites. It gradually grew<br></div><div dir="ltr">it into a real ISP with ten megabits of upstream connections. The<br></div><div dir="ltr">Little Garden offered the first commercial dialup Internet connections<br></div><div dir="ltr">in Mountain View and San Francisco, CA, and also offered 56Kbit DS0 and<br></div><div dir="ltr">Frame Relay, and 1.5Mbit T1 connections. Because of our libertarian<br></div><div dir="ltr">usage policies, low prices, and solid technical chops, we became the<br></div><div dir="ltr">backbone for dozens of small ISPs in Northern California, like ScruzNet<br></div><div dir="ltr">(Santa Cruz), NBnet (North Bay), etc.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">We wouldn't have gotten it off the ground without KA9Q, which was the<br></div><div dir="ltr">only cheap and modifiable way to gateway multiple dialup or nailed-up<br></div><div dir="ltr">modems to the early commercial leased-line Internet. Eventually KA9Q<br></div><div dir="ltr">was too flakey for our level of traffic, and we replaced it with<br></div><div dir="ltr">commercial routers, but that was after a year or two of KA9Q service.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> John Gilmore<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:07:39 -0500<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History - Commercialization<br></div><div dir="ltr">To: John Gilmore <<a href="mailto:gnu@toad.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gnu@toad.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: internet history <<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a href="mailto:CAHxHggf5yUE_nRjxShW0TRBoc5F2sXRWFkTMQ-GV6yKD_R_MaA@mail.gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">CAHxHggf5yUE_nRjxShW0TRBoc5F2sXRWFkTMQ-GV6yKD_R_MaA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">nice story - nostalgic too.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">v<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:06 AM John Gilmore <<a href="mailto:gnu@toad.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gnu@toad.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On 18/02/2019 15:35, Tony Finch wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > I was wondering what effect KA9Q had on low-end adoption. I turned up<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > later, but I remember stories from early (1992 ish) dial-up commercial<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > Internet users who relied on KA9Q.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?= <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > It was key to the Internet's development in the UK. Cliff Stanford<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > started Demon Internet using Phil's KA9Q stack. Without it, dial-up<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Internet access at home/work was just not possible.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> We started a prominent San Francisco Bay Area ISP, The Little Garden,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> using Phil Karn's KA9Q MSDOS software to handle leased lines and dialup<br></div><div dir="ltr">> modems in 2 locations in August 1990. I was one of the techies who<br></div><div dir="ltr">> cobbled it together, with a leased line to the very early Alternet, then<br></div><div dir="ltr">> we hired Tom Jennings, who had also implemented the FIDOnet, to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> professionalize it for growing to serve other sites. It gradually grew<br></div><div dir="ltr">> it into a real ISP with ten megabits of upstream connections. The<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Little Garden offered the first commercial dialup Internet connections<br></div><div dir="ltr">> in Mountain View and San Francisco, CA, and also offered 56Kbit DS0 and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Frame Relay, and 1.5Mbit T1 connections. Because of our libertarian<br></div><div dir="ltr">> usage policies, low prices, and solid technical chops, we became the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> backbone for dozens of small ISPs in Northern California, like ScruzNet<br></div><div dir="ltr">> (Santa Cruz), NBnet (North Bay), etc.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> We wouldn't have gotten it off the ground without KA9Q, which was the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> only cheap and modifiable way to gateway multiple dialup or nailed-up<br></div><div dir="ltr">> modems to the early commercial leased-line Internet. Eventually KA9Q<br></div><div dir="ltr">> was too flakey for our level of traffic, and we replaced it with<br></div><div dir="ltr">> commercial routers, but that was after a year or two of KA9Q service.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> John Gilmore<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______<br></div><div dir="ltr">> internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr">New postal address:<br></div><div dir="ltr">Google<br></div><div dir="ltr">1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor<br></div><div dir="ltr">Reston, VA 20190<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190219/61d07160/attachment-0001.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190219/61d07160/attachment-0001.html</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:38:26 -0500<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [ih] When the words Internet was design to survive a<br></div><div dir="ltr"> nuclear war appeared for the first time? thanks<br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jack@3kitty.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: internet history <<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CAHxHggcdHC72VrHF8yTzC=<a href="mailto:OyTaDLYS0EKWV-f2v_MwV-RPSdGQ@mail.gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">OyTaDLYS0EKWV-f2v_MwV-RPSdGQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Barbara is right about the SRI role in the SAC tests - I may be<br></div><div dir="ltr">misremembering the reconsittution protocol solutions and would be happy to<br></div><div dir="ltr">get better information from Jim or Zaw-Sing if they are still around. I<br></div><div dir="ltr">think the tests I remember were done in 1982. Charlie Brown was involved as<br></div><div dir="ltr">an Air Force officer at the time.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Vint<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:18 PM Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jack@3kitty.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I vaguely remember being at a meeting sometime in the mid-80s. Some<br></div><div dir="ltr">> government/military/contractor site, but can't remember where. It was a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> large (15 or 20) group of people, none of whom I knew. They were using<br></div><div dir="ltr">> lots of jargon I didn't recognize too. I had come in a bit late.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> One of the terms that cropped up was "New Dets Per Second". I knew what<br></div><div dir="ltr">> bits/second were, and kilobits/sec., and similar networky things, but had<br></div><div dir="ltr">> never heard "New Dets Per Second".<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> After a while, the meaning became clear from context.... It was actually<br></div><div dir="ltr">> "NuDets/Second", shorthand for "Nuclear Detonations Per Second".<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I then finally realized I was in the wrong meeting.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> So someone was thinking about such things...<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> /Jack<br></div><div dir="ltr">> On 2/18/19 6:10 PM, Barbara Denny wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I don't remember Radia Perlman's ideas for supporting network partitioning<br></div><div dir="ltr">> and coalescing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> SRI did have a project where we did a few experiments at SAC demonstrating<br></div><div dir="ltr">> a solution to this problem using the ARPAnet and Packet Radio networks. We<br></div><div dir="ltr">> did go out to Offutt for demonstrations using their aircraft. This was in<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the mid 80's. I also think I may have given a demonstration of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> protocols during IETF 4 at SRI to a few people.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I believe Zaw-Sing Su and Jim Mathis worked on the design of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Reconstitution Protocols. I took part in the development and demonstration<br></div><div dir="ltr">> . Mark Lewis also participated in the project as a developer and maybe more<br></div><div dir="ltr">> since I was not part of the project initially. I am pretty sure there was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> a paper at MILCOM about this work.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I believe there was also a RFP in this same time frame asking for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> solutions to islands of connectivity that may happen as a result of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> military conflict. I worked on the SRI proposal at least twice if my<br></div><div dir="ltr">> memory is correct. (I think there may have been a protest to the original<br></div><div dir="ltr">> award so that is why the second proposal.) I don't remember if this project<br></div><div dir="ltr">> was ever awarded to anyone.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> barbara<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On Saturday, February 16, 2019, 9:26:54 AM PST,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history-request@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history-request@postel.org</a> <<a href="mailto:internet-history-request@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history-request@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <<a href="mailto:internet-history-request@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history-request@postel.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Send internet-history mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history-request@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history-request@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history-owner@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">> than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> 1. Re: When did "32" bits for IP register as "not enough"?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> (Craig Partridge)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> 2. Re: Fwd: Re: When the words Internet was design to survive a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> nuclear war appeared for the first time? (John Day)<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 09:35:10 -0700<br></div><div dir="ltr">> From: Craig Partridge <<a href="mailto:craig@tereschau.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">craig@tereschau.net</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Subject: Re: [ih] When did "32" bits for IP register as "not enough"?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> To: Bob Hinden <<a href="mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Cc: internet history <<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <CAHQj4Cc_D5Ee4Oj1VTNKCoY3t4iAvLoY1mHRxOf=<a href="mailto:Smwxk7krjQ@mail.gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Smwxk7krjQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Hi Bob:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> You are right about the implementations being in parallel for a while. I'm<br></div><div dir="ltr">> going to get the dates slightly wrong but Bill's code came out in 4.1c<br></div><div dir="ltr">> (1982?) and BBN kept maintaining its implementation (Dennis Rockwell and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> then Bob Walsh) until c. 1985. Indeed, as I recall there was a debate c.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> 1985 at DARPA about whether to force Berkeley to use the BBN code (which<br></div><div dir="ltr">> had been modified to use the sockets API, which everyone agreed was better<br></div><div dir="ltr">> -- I had a small part in the port to sockets).<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I believe that when the TCP/IP project transitioned to me (c. 1987?), I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> stopped effort on the BBN TCP/IP. I think we had to maintain it a bit as<br></div><div dir="ltr">> we'd licensed it to a workstation vendor (Apollo????). Karen Lam and David<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Waitzman switched to the BSD TCP/IP and we did things like help Steve<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Deering implement multicast and such.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Thanks!<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Craig<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 9:24 AM Bob Hinden <<a href="mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Craig,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > On Feb 15, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Craig Partridge <<a href="mailto:craig@tereschau.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">craig@tereschau.net</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > Important historical nit. I was the manager of the BBN UNIX TCP/IP<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > effort after Rob Gurwitz left (I think Rob inherited it from Jack<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Haverty,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > but not sure). The BSD stack with sockets *was not written by BBN*. It<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > was written by Bill Joy at Berkeley -- using the earlier BBN 4BSD code<br></div><div dir="ltr">> as a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > reference. Entirely new code, but originally bug-for-bug compatible<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > (indeed, years later, when a bug was found in the BSD TCP, the BSD folks<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > stood up and said "that's a bug from BBN?)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > My memory is that they both were maintained in parallel for several<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > years. Also, Bill Joy's TCP stack also had the ?trailers? feature where<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > the headers were at the end of the packet. Documented in RFC893 (<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc893" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc893</a>). Probably not so good for packet<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > switching, but better performance on some host implementations. That<br></div><div dir="ltr">> faded<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > away at some point.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Bob<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> *****<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> mailing lists.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> -------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">> URL:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190216/7f311f34/attachment-0001.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190216/7f311f34/attachment-0001.html</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 12:18:27 -0500<br></div><div dir="ltr">> From: John Day <<a href="mailto:jeanjour@comcast.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jeanjour@comcast.net</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Subject: Re: [ih] Fwd: Re: When the words Internet was design to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> survive a nuclear war appeared for the first time?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> To: Steve Crocker <<a href="mailto:steve@shinkuro.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">steve@shinkuro.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Cc: <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:32E6E6ED-2C77-47A4-B374-EAB335638B69@comcast.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">32E6E6ED-2C77-47A4-B374-EAB335638B69@comcast.net</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> In the FWIW category, I remember that network partitions (between the East<br></div><div dir="ltr">> and West Coasts) occurred, not often but often enough to be noticeable,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> until the 3rd cross-country line went in. Then they were pretty much a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> rarity, if they occurred at all. Illinois was one of the jumping off points<br></div><div dir="ltr">> between East and West, so perhaps we just noticed them more.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> John<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On Feb 16, 2019, at 11:25, Steve Crocker <<a href="mailto:steve@shinkuro.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">steve@shinkuro.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > My brother forwarded the appended thread. It reminded me that I had<br></div><div dir="ltr">> previously been unsuccessful at joining this list, but I am now on the list.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Over the years I have heard many times from many different people and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> also seen in print the idea that the Arpanet was motivated and built for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> nuclear survivability. Moreover, Steve Lukasik, the director of (D)ARPA<br></div><div dir="ltr">> for several of the critical years, included this as one of his reasons for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> signing the checks for the Arpanet.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I think it will be helpful to make a couple of distinctions regarding<br></div><div dir="ltr">> network survivability. Let me offer two dimensions and at least two levels<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of disruption for each.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Equipment outage: When a link or a router becomes unusable, it's<br></div><div dir="ltr">> necessary to route around the loss. It makes a big difference if only a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> few links or routers are down versus a significant fraction are down. In<br></div><div dir="ltr">> normal circumstances, it is expected some lines and some routers will be<br></div><div dir="ltr">> out of service from time to time. In contrast, if there is an attack, the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> outages might be substantial and perhaps purposefully coordinated.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Traffic level: In normal operation, the total traffic is within the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> capacity of the network. In extraordinary times, the traffic level surges<br></div><div dir="ltr">> beyond the capacity of the system. Surges happen for various reasons.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> There might be a very popular web site, e.g. the Victoria Secrets incident,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> or a DDoS attack.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Arguably the Arpanet design addressed survivability for the case when a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> small number of links or routers were out and traffic levels were normal.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Alex colorfully describes Frank Heart's concerns for the risks to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> individual IMPs placed in the very risky environments of universities.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > The Arpanet design did not address the issue of large scale outages nor<br></div><div dir="ltr">> did it include strategies for dealing with overload. In contrast, a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> serious design to address post-nuclear operation would have had to address<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the combination of substantial loss of equipment and a huge spike in urgent<br></div><div dir="ltr">> traffic.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > In the conversations I've had with Lukasik on this matter, he says he<br></div><div dir="ltr">> had in mind the technology could lead to designs that would have that level<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of survivability, and that it was helpful to include this in defending the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> funding for the network. And, as Vint says, subsequent projects explored<br></div><div dir="ltr">> reconstitution in the event of certain kinds of disconnections. However, I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> believe the level of outages explored in those projects were well below the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> levels that would have occurred in a large scale nuclear confrontation.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > In 2017, I ran this question past Larry Roberts. His short reply was he<br></div><div dir="ltr">> would have had to connect each IMP to four others instead of only two or<br></div><div dir="ltr">> three others.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Steve<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > -------- Forwarded Message --------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Subject: Re: [ih] When the words Internet was design to survive a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > nuclear war appeared for the first time?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:30:36 -0500<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > From: Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > To: Alex McKenzie <<a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > CC: internet history <<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a> <mailto:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alex is essentially correct. Paul Baran's work WAS aimed at post-nuclear<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > survival but he never got to try his ideas out as they<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > were rejected as unimplementable or uninteresting by a circuit-switching<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > oriented Defense Communications Agency.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Larry Roberts was clear that the ARPANET was intended to support<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > resource sharing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > By the time Bob Kahn and I started working on Internet with its focus on<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > command/control, the issue of survivability<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > was back on the table. The multi-network design contemplated multiple<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > networks operated by distinct entities<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > (in the DoD perspective it was multiple countries or aggregates like<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > NATO) and resilience was important. I went<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > so far as to commission a test in which we flew packet radios in<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Strategic Air Command aircraft, artificially "broke"<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > the ARPANET up into fragments and re-integrated them through ground to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > air packet radio connectivity. I was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > particularly worried about the partitioning of a constituent network<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > which would cause great confusion for the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > routing algorithm (a source gateway might know know to which "half" of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > the fragmented network a packet should<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > be sent. My hazy recollection is that Radia Perlman came up with a way<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > to solve that problem that involved<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > creating new autonomous systems out of each "piece" and re-enabling<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > routing algorithms.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > vint<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:18 PM Alex McKenzie <<a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a>>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Miles,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I believe the emphasis on survivability came from Frank Heart.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Building the early ARPAnet was a very risky project, in the sense<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > that there was a tight deadline, it would be easy to see if it<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > worked or not, and most people didn't believe it would work.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Frank's reputation was very much on the line. The ruggedized IMP<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > cabinet was part of his emphasis on controlling everything the team<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > could control, to minimize risk. But the particular risks the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ruggedized cabinet was intended to protect against were:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > - careless site personnel, who cared about their own computers but<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > might be expected to stick the IMP in a storage closet where<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > maintenance workers would bump it, and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > - graduate students who might be inclined to study it, perhaps with<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > destructive results. (Lest this seem outlandish, the TIP in Hawaii<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > was a sore spot of unreliability when I was running the NCC -<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > turned out a graduate student was crashing it every day by taping<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > into its power supply which was just right for his project. The TIP<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > was NOT in a ruggedized box.)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > The group was not trying to protect against EMP.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > More generally, if the ARPAnet had been designed to survive a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > nuclear attack it would have been necessary to insure that the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > IMP-to_IMP circuits did not go through the small number of Telco<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > offices which made up the Telco backbone. No effort was made to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > influence the provisioning of these circuits, and it can be presumed<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > that loss of only a few major cities would have resulted in most of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > the leased lines disappearing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Cheers,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alex<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:48 AM Miles Fidelman<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <<a href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a>>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Bernie,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 2/14/19 9:28 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > On February 14, 2019 09:13:42 Alejandro Acosta<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > <<a href="mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > <mailto:<a href="mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> Today I was reading some news about Internet and in one of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> them I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> found the phrase (that all of you have listened before):<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> "Internet<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> (ARPANET) was intended to survive a nuclear war", however, as<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> far as I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> know, this is kind of a myth, right?, ARPANET was intended as<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> a research<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > >> network and the "war" part if very far away from the thuth.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > my take on that is that there were two lines of thought<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > leading up to the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > ARPAnet. very very roughly: one was paul baran's, who was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > thinking<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > about how the military command and control might be able to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > continue functioning in the event of an attack, and JCR<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > Licklider, who was thinking<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > about how wide-spread researchers could share resources, ideas<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > and results<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > to better collaborate.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > when the ARPAnet got funded by the DoD, Baran's story was the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > easier to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > understand to the average person, raather than the more<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > diaphanous idea<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > of researcher collaboration. so Baran's take kinda caught the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > public<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > imagination, but the reality for those of us working on it was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > the it was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > > {somehow :o)} to be a research tool.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > You were involved a lot earlier than I was. Perhaps you could<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > comment on how much folks thought about fault-tolerance in the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > early days. It's always struck me that things like<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > continuity-of-operations, in the face of node & link outages,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > and no-single-point-of-failure, were baked in from the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > beginning. You know - all the stuff that would allow the net to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > survive everything from backhoes to natural disasters, and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > coincidentally, nuclear war.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On the physical side, the early IMPs were pretty rugged boxes<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > (not so much C/30s and such). Were any of the IMPs built to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > withstand EMP?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Miles<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > practice.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > _______<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history </a><<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a>>> for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > _______<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history </a><<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a>>> for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > New postal address:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Google<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Reston, VA 20190<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Dave Crocker<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brandenburg InternetWorking<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > bbiw.net <<a href="http://bbiw.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://bbiw.net/</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <Attached.txt>_______<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> -------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">> URL:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190216/027e514b/attachment.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190216/027e514b/attachment.html</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> End of internet-history Digest, Vol 126, Issue 24<br></div><div dir="ltr">> *************************************************<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______<br></div><div dir="ltr">> internet-history mailing <a href="mailto:listinternet-history@postel.orghttp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">listinternet-history@postel.orghttp</a>://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______<br></div><div dir="ltr">> internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr">New postal address:<br></div><div dir="ltr">Google<br></div><div dir="ltr">1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor<br></div><div dir="ltr">Reston, VA 20190<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <a href="http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190219/9184a547/attachment.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20190219/9184a547/attachment.html</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">internet-history mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Contact <a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">list-owner@postel.org</a> for assistance.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">End of internet-history Digest, Vol 126, Issue 40<br></div><div dir="ltr">*************************************************<br></div></div><div id="ydpb4cf5f90yahoo_quoted_1058942564" class="ydpb4cf5f90yahoo_quoted"><div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
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