[Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

Fri Feb 26 02:29:48 PST 2016

Thank you very much dear Chester, for giving us your views and update of 
the conditions under which your people, living in Hong Kong are 
experiencing access and conditions of Internet access. We in Costa Rica 
have a long tradition of valuing those freedoms many of you see at risk.

Best regards

Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
ISOC Costa Rica Chapter
+506 8837 7176
Skype: carlos.raulg
Current UTC offset: -6.00 (Costa Rica)
On 25 Feb 2016, at 20:36, Chester Soong wrote:

> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(r) 
> Pro*
> Hi All,
>
> I really have mixed feelings seeing all these discussion about China 
> and China's Internet ecosystem. Being a Chinese living in Hong Kong 
> (do pay extra attention to the choice of words here), it feels so 
> close but yet very far away. We are under the sovereignty of the 
> Beijing Government as one of the Special Administrative Region cities, 
> but yet we Hong Kong residents are not Chinese citizens (we do not 
> have Chinese citizenship for the Mainland), and we need special entry 
> permit (which carries an expiration date and the border police of 
> China can confiscate it as they wish. As a matter of fact, many people 
> and students who have different political stance than the Government 
> and Beijing were taken away their permits and not allowed to enter the 
> Mainland, their home country. Can any country do that to their 
> citizens!? They were even refused entry to Macau by the Macau 
> Government. I really feel like a second class citizen here. I believe 
> the event of Occupied Central Movement (or the Umbrella Movement) 
> happened in September 2014 may still remain fresh in many of your 
> minds. Since then, the Hong Kong Police Force has received resources 
> to strengthen their Technology Crime Division and expanded their 
> cyber-security team to a division of its own with more than 40 police 
> officers just in that division responsible for cyber intelligence and 
> surveillance. They have been actively monitoring chat groups with 
> various political interests in local forums very closely.
>
> This seems to be kind of off the track to the main discussion of 
> whether ISC should be part of the ATLARGE Structure. I really have no 
> interest to bore everyone here with China politics, but the heavy 
> monitoring and interference of the BJ Government with the Internet in 
> China, and now becoming more aggressively eminent in Hong Kong. 
> Although ISC does not carry out the surveillance and counteraction 
> directly, it's participation as the so called bridge between 
> government and telcos (even all telcos in China are state-run) is 
> crucial. With all respects to your comments, we are fighting hard to 
> maintain our last piece of turf on online free speech here in one of 
> the Chinese cities.
>
> Having said all that, I still support the approach to work closely 
> with ISC, especially on the technological and accessibility sides for 
> a country with the most potential Internet users in the world. As Sam 
> of ISOC Canada said, having a dialog is always better than none. 
> Staying engaged is beneficial for both parties, and the Internet. 
> Hopeful in our lifetime, or the next, we can "turn" them "a bit". But 
> in terms of the many core values of ISOC, it is hardly on the same 
> path in my humble opinion.
>
> Chester
>
> On 2/24/2016 10:51 PM, Nadira Alaraj wrote:
>> Thanks Klaus for your clarification,
>> Yes, I miss understood,  I thought ISC are watching over and against
>> their government practices.
>>
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>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Klaus Birkenbihl
>> <Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry Nadira - I'm afraid you got me wrong. What I'm saying is we
>> should not ignore them and work with them because they are
>> important. But as long as one of their kernel tasks is to supervise
>> censorship and blocking - i.e. crippling the net- they should NOT be
>> part of ISOC. This would jeopardize our credibility in fighting for
>> an open and equally accessible Internet.
>>
>> Best, Klaus
>>
>> Nadira Alaraj schrieb am 24.02.2016 um 12:58:
>> > Oh Klaus, you took the words from me,
>> > because I was going to write,
>> > for the Internet society it would be much cheaper and more 
>> inclusive if Internet Society of China to be an Internet Society 
>> chapter. Particularity now ISC is in the process of being in the 
>> At-large structure.
>> > Historically talking and most of the chapters created in the 
>> developing countries did emerge either through government or private 
>> sector affiliated bodies.
>> > The Internet Society could distance itself from the political scene 
>> of its host country and open up globally.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> > Nadira Alaraj
>> > Vice chairperson
>> > Palestine Chapter
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Klaus Birkenbihl 
>> <Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>
>> <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >     JOHN MORE schrieb am 23.02.2016 um 15:00:
>> >     > +1. And this is not intended to attack Internet Society 
>> China, which to my knowledge has not attempted to mislead or misuse 
>> its name. It is about protecting not only ISOC, but all the Chapters 
>> and individuals who share the Internet Society's vision and name.
>> >
>>  >     Well (I stated this before in a mail that presumably got
>> lost): I remember ISOC.DE <http://ISOC.DE> <http://ISOC.DE> and a
>> some other chapters met 2003 with a delegation from Internet Society
>> China in 2003. They were on a lobbying tour seeking support to
>> become recognized as an ISOC chapter. So there is (at least was) an
>> interest to be seen as an ISOC chapter.
>> >
>> >     Things I learned during the few month I spent in China working 
>> for W3C:
>> >
>> >     1 ISC runs CNNIC.
>> >     2 ISC is established as an Internet companies association.
>> >     3 ISC is a government watchdog supervising service providers 
>> and Internet companies wrt to conformance to blocking/censorship and 
>> other regulations (“self-disciplinary regulations”).
>> >     4 ISC was very successful in growing and accelerating Internet 
>> throughout China.
>> >
>> >     Though ISC is beneficial for Internet in China in many ways - 
>> item 3 IMHO disqualifies them from becoming in whatever way 
>> affiliated with ISOC.
>> >
>> >     This said: ISC is one of the most important players in the 
>> Internet, supervising provision of Internet access for nearly 10% of 
>> the global population. We have to talk with them and look for 
>> opportunities to cooperate.
>> >
>> >     As far as trademark is concerned: the China Trademark Office 
>> lists 中国互联网协会 which translates to Internet Society of 
>> China (in 3 different classes, whatever that means). I doubt it would 
>> generate any benefit to raise a trademark issue in this case.
>> >
>> >     Best, Klaus
>> >
>> >     --
>> >     Klaus Birkenbihl
>> >     Treasurer and Board member
>>  >     Internet Society German Chapter e.V. (ISOC.DE
>> <http://ISOC.DE> <http://ISOC.DE>)
>> >     c/o ict-Media GmbH
>> >http://www.isoc.de/
>> >
>> >     _______________________________________________
>> >     As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically 
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>> Society
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> --
>> Klaus Birkenbihl
>> Treasurer and Board member
>> Internet Society German Chapter e.V. (ISOC.DE <http://ISOC.DE>)
>> c/o ict-Media GmbH
>> http://www.isoc.de/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> _______________________________________________
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> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet 
> Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org