[Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

Thu Feb 25 18:36:56 PST 2016

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Hi All,

I really have mixed feelings seeing all these discussion about China and 
China's Internet ecosystem. Being a Chinese living in Hong Kong (do pay 
extra attention to the choice of words here), it feels so close but yet 
very far away. We are under the sovereignty of the Beijing Government as 
one of the Special Administrative Region cities, but yet we Hong Kong 
residents are not Chinese citizens (we do not have Chinese citizenship 
for the Mainland), and we need special entry permit (which carries an 
expiration date and the border police of China can confiscate it as they 
wish. As a matter of fact, many people and students who have different 
political stance than the Government and Beijing were taken away their 
permits and not allowed to enter the Mainland, their home country. Can 
any country do that to their citizens!? They were even refused entry to 
Macau by the Macau Government. I really feel like a second class citizen 
here. I believe the event of Occupied Central Movement (or the Umbrella 
Movement) happened in September 2014 may still remain fresh in many of 
your minds. Since then, the Hong Kong Police Force has received 
resources to strengthen their Technology Crime Division and expanded 
their cyber-security team to a division of its own with more than 40 
police officers just in that division responsible for cyber intelligence 
and surveillance. They have been actively monitoring chat groups with 
various political interests in local forums very closely.

This seems to be kind of off the track to the main discussion of whether 
ISC should be part of the ATLARGE Structure. I really have no interest 
to bore everyone here with China politics, but the heavy monitoring and 
interference of the BJ Government with the Internet in China, and now 
becoming more aggressively eminent in Hong Kong. Although ISC does not 
carry out the surveillance and counteraction directly, it's 
participation as the so called bridge between government and telcos 
(even all telcos in China are state-run) is crucial. With all respects 
to your comments, we are fighting hard to maintain our last piece of 
turf on online free speech here in one of the Chinese cities.

Having said all that, I still support the approach to work closely with 
ISC, especially on the technological and accessibility sides for a 
country with the most potential Internet users in the world. As Sam of 
ISOC Canada said, having a dialog is always better than none. Staying 
engaged is beneficial for both parties, and the Internet. Hopeful in our 
lifetime, or the next, we can "turn" them "a bit". But in terms of the 
many core values of ISOC, it is hardly on the same path in my humble 
opinion.

Chester

On 2/24/2016 10:51 PM, Nadira Alaraj wrote:
> Thanks Klaus for your clarification,
> Yes, I miss understood,  I thought ISC are watching over and against
> their government practices.
>
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> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Klaus Birkenbihl
> <Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>> wrote:
>
>     Sorry Nadira - I'm afraid you got me wrong. What I'm saying is we
>     should not ignore them and work with them because they are
>     important. But as long as one of their kernel tasks is to supervise
>     censorship and blocking - i.e. crippling the net- they should NOT be
>     part of ISOC. This would jeopardize our credibility in fighting for
>     an open and equally accessible Internet.
>
>     Best, Klaus
>
>     Nadira Alaraj schrieb am 24.02.2016 um 12:58:
>     > Oh Klaus, you took the words from me,
>     > because I was going to write,
>     > for the Internet society it would be much cheaper and more inclusive if Internet Society of China to be an Internet Society chapter. Particularity now ISC is in the process of being in the At-large structure.
>     > Historically talking and most of the chapters created in the developing countries did emerge either through government or private sector affiliated bodies.
>     > The Internet Society could distance itself from the political scene of its host country and open up globally.
>     >
>     > Best wishes,
>     > Nadira Alaraj
>     > Vice chairperson
>     > Palestine Chapter
>     >
>     > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Klaus Birkenbihl <Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>
>     <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>>>
>     wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >     JOHN MORE schrieb am 23.02.2016 um 15:00:
>     >     > +1. And this is not intended to attack Internet Society China, which to my knowledge has not attempted to mislead or misuse its name. It is about protecting not only ISOC, but all the Chapters and individuals who share the Internet Society's vision and name.
>     >
>      >     Well (I stated this before in a mail that presumably got
>     lost): I remember ISOC.DE <http://ISOC.DE> <http://ISOC.DE> and a
>     some other chapters met 2003 with a delegation from Internet Society
>     China in 2003. They were on a lobbying tour seeking support to
>     become recognized as an ISOC chapter. So there is (at least was) an
>     interest to be seen as an ISOC chapter.
>     >
>     >     Things I learned during the few month I spent in China working for W3C:
>     >
>     >     1 ISC runs CNNIC.
>     >     2 ISC is established as an Internet companies association.
>     >     3 ISC is a government watchdog supervising service providers and Internet companies wrt to conformance to blocking/censorship and other regulations (“self-disciplinary regulations”).
>     >     4 ISC was very successful in growing and accelerating Internet throughout China.
>     >
>     >     Though ISC is beneficial for Internet in China in many ways - item 3 IMHO disqualifies them from becoming in whatever way affiliated with ISOC.
>     >
>     >     This said: ISC is one of the most important players in the Internet, supervising provision of Internet access for nearly 10% of the global population. We have to talk with them and look for opportunities to cooperate.
>     >
>     >     As far as trademark is concerned: the China Trademark Office lists 中国互联网协会 which translates to Internet Society of China (in 3 different classes, whatever that means). I doubt it would generate any benefit to raise a trademark issue in this case.
>     >
>     >     Best, Klaus
>     >
>     >     --
>     >     Klaus Birkenbihl
>     >     Treasurer and Board member
>      >     Internet Society German Chapter e.V. (ISOC.DE
>     <http://ISOC.DE> <http://ISOC.DE>)
>     >     c/o ict-Media GmbH
>     >http://www.isoc.de/
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>     Klaus Birkenbihl
>     Treasurer and Board member
>     Internet Society German Chapter e.V. (ISOC.DE <http://ISOC.DE>)
>     c/o ict-Media GmbH
>     http://www.isoc.de/
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