[Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

Sun Feb 28 18:59:50 PST 2016

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Thanks Carlos! I simply wanted to point out that things are already 
being changed aggressively in Hong Kong. For those of you who don't get 
the news coverage, 5 employees/owners of a small bookstore/publisher in 
Hong Kong who publishes controversial books and magazines which are 
banned in China were made "disappear" since late last year without the 
Hong Kong Government officials even knowing. This has become such an 
embarrassment for the HK Government and stirred international 
condemnation that China has completely ignored the "One Country Two 
System" agreed in the Sino-British Treaty. These people later were 
confirmed by Chinese officials that they are in their custody 
"voluntarily" by using their "own ways" to enter China to surrender 
themselves. Couple of them were taken away from Hong Kong and Thailand 
and the border controls of these governments don't even have record of 
their leaving the city/country. We were kept being warned by Pro-Beijing 
politicians in Hong Kong that if we continue not to behave and push 
Beijing to "do something", it would not be pretty! If things like this 
can happen to a small bookstore operator with small circulated media, it 
can happen to any Chinese locating (two of the detainees were confirmed 
to be British and Sweden citizens) anywhere in the world publishing an 
anti-China article or something.

I really want to maintain a positive mindset with the Chinese Government 
and don't believe so much in conspiracy theories, but things are already 
happening. Sometimes I think we need to be cautious and to think a bit 
negatively just to keep ourselves alert of our good intention can be 
taken advantage of.

Regards,

Chester

On 2/26/2016 6:29 PM, Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez G. wrote:
> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(r) Pro*
> Thank you very much dear Chester, for giving us your views and update of
> the conditions under which your people, living in Hong Kong are
> experiencing access and conditions of Internet access. We in Costa Rica
> have a long tradition of valuing those freedoms many of you see at risk.
>
> Best regards
>
> Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
> ISOC Costa Rica Chapter
> +506 8837 7176
> Skype: carlos.raulg
> Current UTC offset: -6.00 (Costa Rica)
> On 25 Feb 2016, at 20:36, Chester Soong wrote:
>
>> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(r) Pro*
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I really have mixed feelings seeing all these discussion about China
>> and China's Internet ecosystem. Being a Chinese living in Hong Kong
>> (do pay extra attention to the choice of words here), it feels so
>> close but yet very far away. We are under the sovereignty of the
>> Beijing Government as one of the Special Administrative Region cities,
>> but yet we Hong Kong residents are not Chinese citizens (we do not
>> have Chinese citizenship for the Mainland), and we need special entry
>> permit (which carries an expiration date and the border police of
>> China can confiscate it as they wish. As a matter of fact, many people
>> and students who have different political stance than the Government
>> and Beijing were taken away their permits and not allowed to enter the
>> Mainland, their home country. Can any country do that to their
>> citizens!? They were even refused entry to Macau by the Macau
>> Government. I really feel like a second class citizen here. I believe
>> the event of Occupied Central Movement (or the Umbrella Movement)
>> happened in September 2014 may still remain fresh in many of your
>> minds. Since then, the Hong Kong Police Force has received resources
>> to strengthen their Technology Crime Division and expanded their
>> cyber-security team to a division of its own with more than 40 police
>> officers just in that division responsible for cyber intelligence and
>> surveillance. They have been actively monitoring chat groups with
>> various political interests in local forums very closely.
>>
>> This seems to be kind of off the track to the main discussion of
>> whether ISC should be part of the ATLARGE Structure. I really have no
>> interest to bore everyone here with China politics, but the heavy
>> monitoring and interference of the BJ Government with the Internet in
>> China, and now becoming more aggressively eminent in Hong Kong.
>> Although ISC does not carry out the surveillance and counteraction
>> directly, it's participation as the so called bridge between
>> government and telcos (even all telcos in China are state-run) is
>> crucial. With all respects to your comments, we are fighting hard to
>> maintain our last piece of turf on online free speech here in one of
>> the Chinese cities.
>>
>> Having said all that, I still support the approach to work closely
>> with ISC, especially on the technological and accessibility sides for
>> a country with the most potential Internet users in the world. As Sam
>> of ISOC Canada said, having a dialog is always better than none.
>> Staying engaged is beneficial for both parties, and the Internet.
>> Hopeful in our lifetime, or the next, we can "turn" them "a bit". But
>> in terms of the many core values of ISOC, it is hardly on the same
>> path in my humble opinion.
>>
>> Chester
>>
>> On 2/24/2016 10:51 PM, Nadira Alaraj wrote:
>>> Thanks Klaus for your clarification,
>>> Yes, I miss understood,  I thought ISC are watching over and against
>>> their government practices.
>>>
>>> This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
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>>> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Klaus Birkenbihl
>>> <Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry Nadira - I'm afraid you got me wrong. What I'm saying is we
>>> should not ignore them and work with them because they are
>>> important. But as long as one of their kernel tasks is to supervise
>>> censorship and blocking - i.e. crippling the net- they should NOT be
>>> part of ISOC. This would jeopardize our credibility in fighting for
>>> an open and equally accessible Internet.
>>>
>>> Best, Klaus
>>>
>>> Nadira Alaraj schrieb am 24.02.2016 um 12:58:
>>> > Oh Klaus, you took the words from me,
>>> > because I was going to write,
>>> > for the Internet society it would be much cheaper and more
>>> inclusive if Internet Society of China to be an Internet Society
>>> chapter. Particularity now ISC is in the process of being in the
>>> At-large structure.
>>> > Historically talking and most of the chapters created in the
>>> developing countries did emerge either through government or private
>>> sector affiliated bodies.
>>> > The Internet Society could distance itself from the political scene
>>> of its host country and open up globally.
>>> >
>>> > Best wishes,
>>> > Nadira Alaraj
>>> > Vice chairperson
>>> > Palestine Chapter
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Klaus Birkenbihl
>>> <Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>
>>> <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de <mailto:Klaus.Birkenbihl at isoc.de>>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >     JOHN MORE schrieb am 23.02.2016 um 15:00:
>>> >     > +1. And this is not intended to attack Internet Society
>>> China, which to my knowledge has not attempted to mislead or misuse
>>> its name. It is about protecting not only ISOC, but all the Chapters
>>> and individuals who share the Internet Society's vision and name.
>>> >
>>>  >     Well (I stated this before in a mail that presumably got
>>> lost): I remember ISOC.DE <http://ISOC.DE> <http://ISOC.DE> and a
>>> some other chapters met 2003 with a delegation from Internet Society
>>> China in 2003. They were on a lobbying tour seeking support to
>>> become recognized as an ISOC chapter. So there is (at least was) an
>>> interest to be seen as an ISOC chapter.
>>> >
>>> >     Things I learned during the few month I spent in China working
>>> for W3C:
>>> >
>>> >     1 ISC runs CNNIC.
>>> >     2 ISC is established as an Internet companies association.
>>> >     3 ISC is a government watchdog supervising service providers
>>> and Internet companies wrt to conformance to blocking/censorship and
>>> other regulations (“self-disciplinary regulations”).
>>> >     4 ISC was very successful in growing and accelerating Internet
>>> throughout China.
>>> >
>>> >     Though ISC is beneficial for Internet in China in many ways -
>>> item 3 IMHO disqualifies them from becoming in whatever way
>>> affiliated with ISOC.
>>> >
>>> >     This said: ISC is one of the most important players in the
>>> Internet, supervising provision of Internet access for nearly 10% of
>>> the global population. We have to talk with them and look for
>>> opportunities to cooperate.
>>> >
>>> >     As far as trademark is concerned: the China Trademark Office
>>> lists 中国互联网协会 which translates to Internet Society of China
>>> (in 3 different classes, whatever that means). I doubt it would
>>> generate any benefit to raise a trademark issue in this case.
>>> >
>>> >     Best, Klaus
>>> >
>>> >     --
>>> >     Klaus Birkenbihl
>>> >     Treasurer and Board member
>>>  >     Internet Society German Chapter e.V. (ISOC.DE
>>> <http://ISOC.DE> <http://ISOC.DE>)
>>> >     c/o ict-Media GmbH
>>> >http://www.isoc.de/
>>> >
>>> >     _______________________________________________
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>>> Society
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Klaus Birkenbihl
>>> Treasurer and Board member
>>> Internet Society German Chapter e.V. (ISOC.DE <http://ISOC.DE>)
>>> c/o ict-Media GmbH
>>> http://www.isoc.de/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>