[ih] early networking

Leonard Kleinrock lk at cs.ucla.edu
Sat Apr 20 13:40:09 PDT 2024 

Matt,

In response to your excellent query "The TCP/IP split happened before my time.   It would be interesting to know
more about that event.”, I expect you know, but in case not, as far as I recall,  there were folks who were pushing for real-time traffic support and thus to split IP from TCP early on.  In particular, I recall the work of Danny Cohen, et al, and his work on Network Voice Protocol (up and running in 1973) and his promoting the split.  For example, here is a video of Danny discussing the early days and the history of real time voice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4.

Len


> On Apr 20, 2024, at 10:16 AM, Matt Mathis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I was answering the wrong question, but I stand by my assertion that
> "successive approximation" applies to all of the key concepts, and that it
> is a false effort to anoint any particular iteration as the start of the
> modern Internet.
> 
> In my mind the crucial event was to split TCP and IP into
> separate protocols, such that there was deep architectural enforcement of
> the hourglass and the orthogonality of the upper and lower protocol
> layers.   This orthogonality means that the cost of  maintaining M
> applications over N link types scales as O(M)+O(N).  Half of the IETF
> worked up the stack, and half worked down the stack.  The overlap was
> almost entirely about annealing the semantics of TCP/IP itself.
> 
> As far as I am aware, all Internet technologies that enable applications to
> interact with the lower layers have died, because they introduce costs that
> scale O(M*N).   It remains to be seen if L4S introduces a small enough
> delta where it can become part of the hourglass,    (IPv6 introduced a
> "double neck" ... and still has not fully deployed.   Its costs scale as
> O(2M)+O(2N) during the "transition" ).
> 
> IMHO The hourglass and orthogonality of upper and lower stacks is the
> reason that the big I Internet crushed all competing technologies.
> 
> The TCP/IP split happened before my time.   It would be interesting to know
> more about that event.
> 
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force to
> apply it to others.
> -------------------------------------------
> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 4:31 AM John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
>> In the early 70s, people were trying to figure out how to interwork
>> multiple networks of different technologies. What was the solution that was
>> arrived at that led to the current Internet?
>> 
>> I conjectured yesterday that the fundamental solution must have been in
>> hand by the time Cerf and Kahn published their paper.
>> 
>> Are you conjecturing that the solution was gateways? and hence protocol
>> translation at the gateways?
>> 
>> Take care,
>> John
>> 
>> On Apr 19, 2024, at 23:57, Matt Mathis <matt.mathis at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Due to a missing reply all or something, some of us never saw the
>> beginning of the thread.    What was your precise question?
>> 
>> Questions of the form "When was X invented" almost always have answers
>> that are successive approximations.  i.e. The ideas were around for a long
>> time, but didn't really work in the early days.   The final answer ends up
>> depending on splitting hairs on whether version N-k is "functionally the
>> same" and version N, but version N-k-1 is not.   I don't find such
>> definitions very useful, but the thread connecting the historical
>> evolution of a concept is fascinating.  e.g. the evolution of gateways
>> connecting networks over thousands of years is interesting.   Drawing the
>> line between between two and calling one the first modern gateway is not.
>> That line will move as gateways continue to evolve.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> --MM--
>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
>> to apply it to others.
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:33 PM John Day via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> All week and still don’t have an answer to my question.  That is very
>>> unusual for this list. ;-)
>>> 
>>> So far there has been a lot of conjecture, not even hearsay, but no facts.
>>> 
>>> Having a few moments, I went back to look at the May 1974 paper to see if
>>> had any clues, after all the title is "A Protocol for Packet Network
>>> Intercommunication.” I assume the answer was found prior to that paper. Is
>>> that true?
>>> 
>>> I found two major topics there: the early part of the paper spends time
>>> discussing protocol translation between networks and the rest of course
>>> describes the protocol that became TCP.
>>> 
>>> Is one of these insight to the solution?  Just trying to understand what
>>> it was.
>>> 
>>> Take care,
>>> John
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 14, 2024, at 16:07, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I am surprised that there was not a lively discussion of this.  It is
>>> an honest question. It is unclear to me what precisely the solution to
>>> internetworking was?  I don’t want to suggest anything and affect the
>>> answer, but I guess I could.
>>>> 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 06:24, John Day via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> sorry forgot to hit reply-all
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
>>>>>> Date: April 9, 2024 at 06:22:45 EDT
>>>>>> To: Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nor was there about virtual circuits and X.25, but it was packet
>>> switching.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have known this was totally different for 50+ years.  That isn’t
>>> the question. There are probably lots of ways to solve this problem. What
>>> was the solution adopted?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> John
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 00:06, Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There was hardly anything redudant, 'multi-path', decentralised,
>>> end-to-end free, open about telegrams.  OUR "InterNetWorks"  is something
>>> totally and fundamentally different from THEIR telephones and telegrams,
>>> hence it is unwise to allow THEM to trace the history of Internetworking to
>>> the telegram switches bought by the Army, Navy and Airforce !
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 09:19 John Day, <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net> <mailto:
>>> jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I guess this begs the question, what was the solution to
>>> internetworking?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2024, at 23:33, Sivasubramanian M via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This history video narrated by an AI-like voice traces the history
>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> Internet to telegraph switching and makes a passing suggestion
>>> that US
>>>>>>>>> Army, Navy and Airforce instituted automated telegraph switching
>>> euipment
>>>>>>>>> ... this was perhaps the first Internetwork. Clever argument.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 03:35 Vint Cerf via Internet-history, <
>>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> interesting pre-Arpanet/Internet history
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkwWZ6ujy0
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>>>>>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>>>>>>>> Google, LLC
>>>>>>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>>>>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>>>>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> until further notice
>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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