[ih] "The Great Debate"
the keyboard of geoff goodfellow
geoff at iconia.com
Wed Apr 29 22:54:54 PDT 2026
ok, so to remove any possible ambiguities:
the person leading the PPP WG was Drew Perkins who "invented the
Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP) and in 1989 authored RFC-1134,
"Point-to-Point Protocol: A proposal for multi-protocol transmission of
datagrams over Point-to-Point links", RFC-1171, "The Point-to-Point
Protocol for the Transmission of Multi-Protocol Datagrams Over
Point-to-Point Links", and RFC-1172, "The Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP)
Initial Configuration Options" while co-chairing the PPP Working Group. I
also wrote a software implementations of PPP that was incorporated into
many popular commercial hardware and software products."
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewdperkins/details/experience/
the person chairing the IETF at the time was its co-founder Phil Gross
https://www.ithistory.org/honor-roll/phill-gross
yours truly would highly encourage you to read (at least the first 3
issues) of The Internet Crucible if you haven't done so as there is quite a
bit of "muck"/"history" in them about the various "issues", "frustrations"
and "lackings" of that time period, viz.:
August, 1989
A Critical Analysis of the Internet Management Situation: The Internet
Lacks Governance
https://iconia.com/ic/V1-1.txt
September, 1989
The Changing Nature of Managing the Internet
https://iconia.com/ic/V1-2.txt
January, 1990
Overselling The Network
https://iconia.com/ic/V2-1.txt
yours truly will add that the only way The Internet Crucible made the light
of day and couldn't be summarily squashed by some hierarchical edict is
that yours truly had left SRI and was thus not beholden or answerable to
"from upon high" -- much to their abject "consternation" :)
The IAB at the time was MIGHTLY OUTRAGED by The Crucible publications and
there was talk of litigation... which would have been made glorious press
coverage in various mainstream media publications (like the New York Times)
which yours truly had kept in warm contact with after spending more than a
month dealing with following yours truly testifying before the
Congressional Subcommittee on Transportation, Aviation and Materials on the
subject of Telecommunications Security and Privacy in 1983 which was quite
mobbed with national print and broadcast media (yours truly subsequently
testified before Congress again in 1993 vis-a-vis A Bill To Establish
Procedures To Improve the Allocation and Assignment of the Electromagnetic
Spectrum but that's a story for another day)
g
On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 9:59 PM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is fascinating. I just had a look for "PPP" in my IAB email archive
> from that period. As a new IAB member, I was worried that the IAB was not
> terribly well thought of and we made an attempt to find out what people
> thought. An IAB member had this to say in May 1994:
>
> "3) A relatively new complaint that the IETF is becoming too bureaucratic,
> more
> and more like ISO. This comes under different tones. I have heard it from
> XXX, also from YYY. YYY is griding one
> particular axe: he believes that the IETf is now too open, to the point
> that
> any jerk that comes in and pays his fee can endlessly block a working
> group. I
> bet he was thinking of PPP, but other example may exist. This view is not
> uninamous - see the exactly opposite position of ZZZ."
>
> Then in February 1995, Fred Baker wrote (in public as far as I can tell
> from the email headers):
>
> "I, as chair of PPPEXT, am hearing from various sources "we want to work
> with the IETF to generate interoperable standards, but it appears that the
> timeframe required to generate them exceeds our threshold of pain, so we
> feel forced to use proprietary means and perhaps publish them as
> informational RFCs". Wherever one might point claiming to assign blame, it
> is the IESG that provides management oversight for the IETF and therefore
> it is the IESG that must fix the
> problem with delays. So far, it has not done this. And at this point, I
> feel that the IESG itself is a major factor in the delays."
>
> Then in March 1995, Bill Simpson posted a formal appeal:
>
> "Formal IAB appeal: IESG paralysis and inactivity
> ...
> If all such appeals are to be in open forum, and we have to wait for an
> IETF Plenary to be held to consider an appeal, please add formal appeal
> of the IESG inactivity regarding PPP Compression to your docket.
>
> The PPP WG submitted PPP Compression over a year ago...."
>
> This was all about IPR claims by a large company. I daresay it was one of
> the topics during the fine IAB dinner in Stockholm. The IETF hadn't yet
> figured out how to deal with contentious IPR claims. I think we do better
> now.
>
> Regards/Ngā mihi
> Brian Carpenter
>
> On 30-Apr-26 15:40, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote:
> > CORRECTION: missing a NOT in "meanwhile yours truly's (and others
> businesses) were being summarily "stymied"/"harmed" because the
> ineffective IETF PPP Standard Working Group lead wasn't doing their "job"
> and the IETF "management" was NOT doing anything about it (as detailed in
> The Crucible Editions)"
> >
> > g
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 8:36 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <
> geoff at iconia.com <mailto:geoff at iconia.com>> wrote:
> >
> > The Internet Crucible's were published between August, 1989
> and March, 1990
> > https://iconia.com/ic/ <https://iconia.com/ic/>
> >
> > Marshall Rose's "The Open Book" was published January 1, 1990
> > https://amzn.to/4tLmJl8 <https://amzn.to/4tLmJl8>
> >
> > The Tao of the IETF (RFC1391) was published January 1993
> > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1391 <
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1391>
> >
> > The Stockholm IETF meeting "fine (working) dinner" was in July 1995
> >
> > when both yours truly and Marshall were living in SF Bay Area
> residents in the 80's and 90's we would enjoy "fine dinners" out (IIRC
> sometimes also attended by Ole Jacobsen) and talk about the IETF "standards
> processes", "progress" (and lack thereof) as well as WG's (like the
> "Beachcombers Working Group" at one of the Hawaii IETF meetings)
> >
> > meanwhile yours truly's (and others businesses) were being summarily
> "stymied"/"harmed" because the ineffective IETF PPP Standard Working Group
> lead wasn't doing their "job" and the IETF "management" was doing anything
> about it (as detailed in The Crucible Editions)
> >
> > oh, and btw, we had another term: "a particularly fine dinner" vs. a
> "fine dinner" is the difference between someone else paying for your dinner
> and you paying for your own dinner.. and since IETF attendees were most
> likely traveling on/for their employers, they weren't likely paying for
> them out of their own pocket
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 7:45 PM Brian E Carpenter via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >
> > What I remember about "many fine lunches and dinners" is that at
> the Stockholm
> > IETF meeting in July 1995, the IAB held a very fine working**
> dinner in a private
> > room at a ground-floor restaurant near the convention centre.
> What we hadn't
> > realised was that we were very visible, as we ate and drank, for
> everyone walking
> > between the meeting venue and the various hotels. We heard a lot
> of remarks
> > about our conspicuous fine dinner the next day. The Open Book
> was well known
> > at the time, and the fine lunches and dinners had made into the
> Tao of the IETF
> > (RFC1391) - but misquoted, because the original context was to
> distinguish
> > Doers from Goers. I will leave Geoff to explain that if he wants
> to.
> >
> > ** I swear we were working hard throughout the meal.
> >
> > Regards/Ngā mihi
> > Brian Carpenter
> >
> > On 30-Apr-26 13:16, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history wrote:
> > > any vigorous enmity at that IETF meeting directed towards
> Marshall Rose for
> > > the part in "The Open Book" regarding The IETF standards
> processes, the
> > > "many fine lunches and dinners", et al. should be summarily
> (re-)directed
> > > towards yours truly... who ghost wrote that section of "The
> Open Book"
> > >
> > > if your wondering about/what/why might have been the
> "inspiration" for
> > > doing it... well it was Exactly The Same Impetus of yours
> truly
> > > facilitating and launching the Internet Crucible publication,
> as summarily
> > > explained, detailed and exampled in:
> > >
> > >
> https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2025-April/010449.html
> <https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2025-April/010449.html
> >
> > >
> > > g
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2026 at 11:35 AM Dave Crocker via
> Internet-history <
> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 4/26/2026 5:26 PM, Carl Malamud via Internet-history
> wrote:
> > >>> In regards to Marshall and the OSI question, he gave a
> memorable speech
> > >> at
> > >>> an IETF plenary about how he had implemented OSI and he
> considered it to
> > >> be
> > >>> road kill in motion. He got a standing ovation from Jon
> Postel and
> > >> others.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Assuming we are thinking of the same event, this was
> Marshall's first
> > >> time at an IETF and his presence and his presentation were
> carefully
> > >> arranged.
> > >>
> > >> Marshall was working for me, at the time, and had just
> published his
> > >> wonderful tome, The Open Book, about OSI.
> > >>
> > >> It included some discussion of standards processes,
> including reference
> > >> to the IETF. I'm not finding the relevant text that he made
> about
> > >> standards processes but it included a summary assessment
> that these
> > >> meetings were marked by "many fine lunches and dinners".
> > >>
> > >> He later reported that the OSI folk who read the book pretty
> much nodded
> > >> in agreement with his characterization of the standards work.
> > >>
> > >> However many fine IETF folk took vigorous exception. So
> there was some
> > >> community anger with Marshall.
> > >>
> > >> His appearance at the Hawaii IETF was intended to mend the
> fence. His
> > >> presentation was stellar in form and content and was
> thoroughly successful.
> > >>
> > >> A bit of icing happened when I walked by a small group
> discussing what
> > >> turned out to be final plans for the meeting t-shirt. I
> injected the
> > >> suggestion that at the bottom of the shirt's graphic, they
> should add
> > >> "Many fine lunches and dinner" and they did. And at the
> Plenary, they
> > >> made a formal presentation of a shirt to Marshall.
> > >>
> > >> d/
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Dave Crocker
> > >>
> > >> dhc at dcrocker.net <mailto:dhc at dcrocker.net>
> > >> bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
> > >> mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
> > >> +1.408.329.0791
> > >>
> > >> Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
> > >> Northern California Coastal Region
> > >> Information & Planning Coordinator
> > >> American Red Cross
> > >> dave.crocker2 at redcross.org <mailto:
> dave.crocker2 at redcross.org>
>
>
--
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
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