[ih] "The Great Debate"

Wed Apr 29 20:40:55 PDT 2026

CORRECTION: missing a NOT in "meanwhile yours truly's (and others
businesses) were being summarily "stymied"/"harmed" because the
ineffective IETF PPP Standard Working Group lead wasn't doing their "job"
and the IETF "management" was NOT doing anything about it (as detailed in
The Crucible Editions)"

g

On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 8:36 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <
geoff at iconia.com> wrote:

> The Internet Crucible's were published between August, 1989 and March, 1990
> https://iconia.com/ic/
>
> Marshall Rose's "The Open Book" was published January 1, 1990
> https://amzn.to/4tLmJl8
>
> The Tao of the IETF (RFC1391) was published January 1993
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1391
>
> The Stockholm IETF meeting "fine (working) dinner" was in July 1995
>
> when both yours truly and Marshall were living in SF Bay Area residents in
> the 80's and 90's we would enjoy "fine dinners" out (IIRC sometimes also
> attended by Ole Jacobsen) and talk about the IETF "standards processes",
> "progress" (and lack thereof) as well as WG's (like the "Beachcombers
> Working Group" at one of the Hawaii IETF meetings)
>
> meanwhile yours truly's (and others businesses) were being summarily
> "stymied"/"harmed" because the ineffective IETF PPP Standard Working Group
> lead wasn't doing their "job" and the IETF "management" was doing anything
> about it (as detailed in The Crucible Editions)
>
> oh, and btw, we had another term: "a particularly fine dinner" vs. a "fine
> dinner" is the difference between someone else paying for your dinner and
> you paying for your own dinner.. and since IETF attendees were most likely
> traveling on/for their employers, they weren't likely paying for them out
> of their own pocket
>
> g
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 7:45 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> What I remember about "many fine lunches and dinners" is that at the
>> Stockholm
>> IETF meeting in July 1995, the IAB held a very fine working** dinner in a
>> private
>> room at a ground-floor restaurant near the convention centre. What we
>> hadn't
>> realised was that we were very visible, as we ate and drank, for everyone
>> walking
>> between the meeting venue and the various hotels. We heard a lot of
>> remarks
>> about our conspicuous fine dinner the next day. The Open Book was well
>> known
>> at the time, and the fine lunches and dinners had made into the Tao of
>> the IETF
>> (RFC1391) - but misquoted, because the original context was to distinguish
>> Doers from Goers. I will leave Geoff to explain that if he wants to.
>>
>> ** I swear we were working hard throughout the meal.
>>
>> Regards/Ngā mihi
>>     Brian Carpenter
>>
>> On 30-Apr-26 13:16, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
>> wrote:
>> > any vigorous enmity at that IETF meeting directed towards Marshall Rose
>> for
>> > the part in "The Open Book" regarding The IETF standards processes, the
>> > "many fine lunches and dinners", et al. should be summarily
>> (re-)directed
>> > towards yours truly... who ghost wrote that section of "The Open Book"
>> >
>> > if your wondering about/what/why might have been the "inspiration" for
>> > doing it... well it was Exactly The Same Impetus of yours truly
>> > facilitating and launching the Internet Crucible publication, as
>> summarily
>> > explained, detailed and exampled in:
>> >
>> >
>> https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2025-April/010449.html
>> >
>> > g
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 27, 2026 at 11:35 AM Dave Crocker via Internet-history <
>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 4/26/2026 5:26 PM, Carl Malamud via Internet-history wrote:
>> >>> In regards to Marshall and the OSI question, he gave a memorable
>> speech
>> >> at
>> >>> an IETF plenary about how he had implemented OSI and he considered it
>> to
>> >> be
>> >>> road kill in motion. He got a standing ovation from Jon Postel and
>> >> others.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Assuming we are thinking of the same event, this was Marshall's first
>> >> time at an IETF and his presence and his presentation were carefully
>> >> arranged.
>> >>
>> >> Marshall was working for me, at the time, and had just published his
>> >> wonderful tome, The Open Book, about OSI.
>> >>
>> >> It included some discussion of standards processes, including reference
>> >> to the IETF.  I'm not finding the relevant text that he made about
>> >> standards processes but it included a summary assessment that these
>> >> meetings were marked by "many fine lunches and dinners".
>> >>
>> >> He later reported that the OSI folk who read the book pretty much
>> nodded
>> >> in agreement with his characterization of the standards work.
>> >>
>> >> However many fine IETF folk took vigorous exception.  So there was some
>> >> community anger with Marshall.
>> >>
>> >> His appearance at the Hawaii IETF was intended to mend the fence.  His
>> >> presentation was stellar in form and content and was thoroughly
>> successful.
>> >>
>> >> A bit of icing happened when I walked by a small group discussing what
>> >> turned out to be final plans for the meeting t-shirt.  I injected the
>> >> suggestion that at the bottom of the shirt's graphic, they should add
>> >> "Many fine lunches and dinner" and they did.  And at the Plenary, they
>> >> made a formal presentation of a shirt to Marshall.
>> >>
>> >> d/
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Dave Crocker
>> >>
>> >> dhc at dcrocker.net
>> >> bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
>> >> mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
>> >> +1.408.329.0791
>> >>
>> >> Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
>> >> Northern California Coastal Region
>> >> Information & Planning Coordinator
>> >> American Red Cross
>> >> dave.crocker2 at redcross.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
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>>
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
>
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True