[ih] Fwd: Packet Radio Info - CORRECTION

[Greg Skinner]

Forwarded for Barbara

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 at 09:55:29 AM PDT
> Subject: Re: [ih] Fwd: Packet Radio Info - CORRECTION
> 
> darn - a bad typo
> 
> The event at Zotts was in 1976, not 1977.
> 
> I have also discovered you might need to use apps.dtic.mil to retrieve the BBN final report.  The url mentioned below doesn't seem very stable. That website tries to use AI.  I haven't tried to see how much new info i can find yet with the AI assist. I found the report using the non-AI website.
> 
> Hopefully this message will reach the list soon. I have had  trouble sending this correction to the list over the past several days.
> 
> 
> barbara
> 
> 
> On Thursday, April 16, 2026 at 12:38:35 AM PDT, Greg Skinner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded for Barbara
> 
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com <mailto:b_a_denny at yahoo.com>>
> > To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2026 at 12:10:49 AM PDT
> > Subject: Packet Radio Info
> >
> > Jack's somewhat recent email caused me to do some poking around the net for early info on packet radio.  I decided to share a brief summary of what I found in case anyone is interested.
> >
> > See my inline comment below for the start of this discussion.  See the original email for the rest of Jack's contribution.
> >
> > barbara
> >
> > On Thursday, March 12, 2026 at 12:26:01 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >
> > ***** Deleted info ****""""""
> >
> > Prior to that, the Internet had largely been a project focused on
> > military needs, with a "pipeline" driving technology from research to
> > operations.  The most prominent example of full progress through that
> > pipeline was the ARPANET, which evolved into the DDN as the
> > comprehensive data communications system for all military needs.  But
> > there were other projects proceeding down the pipeline, such as SATNET,
> > which evolved into MATNET as a US Navy prototype, and Packet Radio,
> > which evolved into prototype testing in Army exercises.  I don't know
> > if either of those technologies advanced further down the pipeline.
> >
> > ****** Rest of Jack's  email deleted. ********
> >
> > For those who don't know much about Packet Radio, its reach went well beyond the Army (Besides demos and participation in Army exercises, there were testbeds at Fort Bragg and maybe Fort Sill).  There were a large number of demos/events for other DoD officials including the Marines,  the Air Force (The RP experiments with at least one demonstration at SAC), the Navy (I think the packet network in the Bay Area was extended down to the Naval Post Graduate School for an event for example.  There might have been a link problem that prevented its actual use during this event.),  DCA,  and the Warrior Prep Center at Einseidlerhof, Germany (LPR for that one in the early 90s). There were also other small installations like at Xerox PARC and BBN. I also think the Fort Bragg testbed, which had  IMPs as well, was designed for operational service (24/7 with military users). I think planning for this testbed started in 1979 and packet radio participation continued with the release of the LPR in
>   the mid 80s.
> >
> > The following two references contain more information about the Fort Bragg testbeds (ADDS and ADDCOMPE). These testbeds might have had the same Army people involved but reflected different periods in time. I only knew Fort Bragg had a testbed when I was working on packet radio at BBN.
> >
> > M. Frankel, "Advanced Technology Testbeds for Distributed Survivable Command, Control, and Communications", Milcom 1982.
> > M. Frankel, C. Graff, L. Dworkin, and Thomas Klein," An Overview of the Army/DARPA Distributed Command Processing Experiments",  IEEE JSAC 4(2), 1986, pp. 207-215.
> >
> > I also confirmed that the Eichler site, used in the 1977 event at Zott's, was on Stanford land. It was not at the dish but nearby. 
> >
> > The reference below contains more info about AALPs which was developed for the Fort Bragg ADDS testbed (XVIII Airborne Corp) using AI technology at the time.  A previous email mentioned this application.
> >
> > Debra Anderson, Charles Ortiz, "AALPS - A Knowledge-based System for Aircraft Loading", IEEE Expert 2(4),1987, pp. 71-79.
> >
> > I also tripped on a BBN Final Report in the Defense Technical Information website which includes brief information about the various versions of CAP (Channel Access Protocol)  software up until December 1980.  BTW, I believe there were two more CAP versions.  CAP6 included multi-station support and CAP7 was a stationless implementation. There may have been changes to the radio software for CAP6 and CAP7. I only worked on issues associated with the station so my knowledge is sketchy about other possible modifications. Things, like power control for example, were discussed at meetings but I don't know what was included.  See ADA093135 in discover.dtic.mil for this report.
> >
> > In the past, I have also mentioned my curiosity about whether, and how, packet radio might have influenced TCP decisions.  I discovered the TCP working group had at meeting at SRI in October 1977 ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/ieni/ien66.pdf <https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien67.pdf>). Participants were given a packet radio demo using the mobile/bread van.  The TCP meeting notes mention the demo but there is no indication that it provoked any discussion relating to packet radio and TCP afterwards.  However if you look at the next TCP  meeting notes in January (https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien67.pdf) , questions generated are recorded.  One response to a question suggests that there might be a way to improve TCP in a lossy environment. I haven't had a chance to look at later TCP reports.
> >
> 
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> -
> Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history