[ih] Question on Flow Control

[John Day]

This discussions seems to have run its course and there is still no answer to the origins of sliding window flow control.

I will continue to look for information on the question. In the meantime, I will probably guess that that fixed window preceded dynamic window in some private developments. That LeLann encountered fixed sliding window in Rennes, where it had been circulating in some datacomm circles (where it was also picked up by IBM) and the CYCLADES project generalized it to the dynamic window most likely in J.F. Chambon, M. Élie, J. Le Bihan, G. Le Lann, and H. Zimmerman, “Functional specification of the transmission station in the CYCLADES network -- The STST protocol” (in French), I.R.I.A. Tech. Rep. SCH502.3, May 1973.

Independent invention is still a real possibility.

I am probably wrong, but I have found that is the best way to find out what is right. ;-)

Thanks for all of the input,
John


> On Dec 29, 2025, at 16:23, John Day via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 29, 2025, at 12:57, Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net> wrote:
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>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2025 at 12:07 PM John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> As for TCP initially using Selective-repeat or SACK, do you remember what the TCP retransmission time out was at that time? It makes a difference.  The nominal value in the textbooks is RTT + 4D, where D is the mean variation. There is an RFC that says if 4D < 1 sec, set it to 1 sec. which seems high, but that is what it says.
>>> 
>>> Take care,
>>> John
>> 
>> Serious study of what the RTO should be didn't happen until the late 1980s.  Before that, it was rather ad hoc.
> 
> I only brought up RTO because of the comment about SACK. For SACK to be useful, RTO can’t be too short. 3 seconds sounds like plenty of time.
> 
>> RFC 793 says min(upper bound,  beta * min(lower bound, SRTT)). where SRTT was an incremental moving average, SRTT = (alpha * SRTT) + (1-alpha)(measured RTT).  But this leaves open all sorts of questions such as: what should alpha and beta be (RFC 793 suggests alpha of .8 or so and beta of 1.3 to 2), and do you measure an RTT once per window (BSD's approach) or once per segment (I think TENEX's approach).  Not to mention the retransmission ambiguity problem, which Lixia Z. and Raj Jain discovered in 1985-6.  \\
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much what the textbooks say these days. Although RFC 6298 has an equation for calculating RTO, the RFC says that if equation yields a value less than 1 sec, then set it to 1 sec. It also says that the previous value was 3 sec and there is no problem continuing to use that.  So it would seem RTO should be between 1 and 3 seconds.  This seems to be a long time.
> 
>> (If you are wondering why we didn't use variance -- it required a square root which was strictly a no-no in kernels of that era;  Van J. solved part of this issue by finding a variance calculation that could be done without a square root).
> 
> Yes, it was clear why variance wasn’t used. It required by both squares and square root. I tell students that in Operating Systems,  multiplication is higher math. ;-)
> 
>> 
>> This is an improvement on TCP v2 (which is silent on the topic) and IEN 15 (1976) which says use 2 * RTT estimate.
> 
> For RTO? Yea, that would something to start with.
>> 
>> Ethernet and ALOHA were more explicit about this process but both had far easier problems, with well bounded prop delay (and in ALOHA's case, a prop delay so long it swamped queueing times).
>> 
>> Part of the reason TCP was slow to realize the issues, I think, were (1) the expectation loss would be low (Dave Clark used to say that in the 1970s, the notion was loss was below 1%, which, in a time when windows were often 4, mean the RTO was used about 4% of the time); and (2) failure to realize congestion collapse was an issue (when loss rates soar to 80% or more and your RTO estimator really needs to be good or you make congestion worse).  It is not chance that RTO issues came to a head as the Internet was suffering congestion collapse.  I got pulled into the issues (and helped Phil Karn solve retransmission ambiguity) because I was playing with RDP, which had selective acks, and was seeing also sorts of strange holes in my windows (as out of order segments were being acked) and trying to figure out what to retransmit and when.
> 
> It doesn’t help that the Internet adopted what is basically CUTE+AIMD.
> 
> But back to the flow control issue. This is a digression on a rat hole. ;-)
> 
> But also a useful discussion.  ;-)
> 
> The question remains was dynamic window an enhancement of static window or were they independently developed?
> 
> Take care,
> John
>> 
>> Craig
>> 
>> 
>> --
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