[ih] IETF relevance (was Memories of Flag Day?)
christian de larrinaga
cdel at firsthand.net
Thu Aug 31 05:24:56 PDT 2023
That's a lovely post.
I agree Networking in the broader sense as a creative generator is
really the point that too often gets squandered.
BTW You'd be most welcome participating in the UK ISOC
chapter. https://www.isoc-e.org
best Christian
Christian de Larrinaga FBCS CITP
07989 386778
Nigel Roberts via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> writes:
> On 8/31/23 01:41, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> the X.25 people from France (Transpac- France Telecom), England (PSS/EPSS
>> British Telecom), Canada (Datapac) and Telenet did their work more
> or less
>> concurrently with the development of TCP/IP.
>>
>
> I remember EPSS as if it were yesterday.
>
> Essex was part of the EPPSS trial There was a strong connection
> between the BT research place at Martlesham Heath (and whom I worked
> for. much later).
>
> It was an EPSS link to UCL that got us on to the ARPAnet in early
> 1978; from UCL (which was on both) I was able to login to MIT-DM
> (host 70).
>
> I believe DM stood for Data Modelling, but I always think of as
> Dungeon Master!! The work of Lebling et al on ZORK inspired us
> (Bartle, Trubshaw, myself) to create MUD in late 1978, proving
> multi-user games were possible. (We played ZORK incessantly as
> undergrads, having completely finished off ADVENTure -- even the last
> 1 remaining score point).
>
>
> What I think this indicates is that "sequences of event" are not just
> the usual broute to disasters, but can also lead to fortunate
> occurrences (i.e. serendipity), and that the strength is in the
> network (something our local Island airline would do well to
> remember).
>
>
>
> Nigel
> --
> Nigel Roberts, Maison du Cotil. Alderney GY9 3YZ
> nigel at roberts.co.uk +44 20 7100 4319
>
>
>
> On 8/31/23 01:41, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> the X.25 people from France (Transpac- France Telecom), England (PSS/EPSS
>> British Telecom), Canada (Datapac) and Telenet did their work more or less
>> concurrently with the development of TCP/IP.
>> v
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 5:01 PM John Day via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I was trying to think of companies that participated. There really weren’t
>>> any 'networking companies’ yet that weren’t phone companies. Roland
>>> Bryant’s ACC was about as close as it came to a networking ;-) and he
>>> didn’t attend INWG.
>>>
>>>> On Aug 30, 2023, at 19:56, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> John is correct that INWG in its early period and even as IFIP WG 6.1
>>> has a pretty strong academic character.
>>>> IETF would have been similar in its early 1986 formation. There are
>>> probably available attendance statistics for the IETF of today and I would
>>> not be surprised to see a pretty healthy industry component. Nonetheless,
>>> with some notable exceptions, my impression is that IETF WGs are still
>>> pretty collaborative across corporate boundaries.
>>>>
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 4:47 PM John Day via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Jumping in. INWG in the mid-70s was a different time. Without looking
>>> at the membership list, which I have, the only ‘vendors’ were phone
>>> companies that were vertically integrated. DEC and Xerox were there.
>>> Otherwise, it was researchers and academics. I would guess about half and
>>> half as far as who was at the meetings, not just on the mailing list. Who
>>> did I miss?
>>>>>
>>>>> Vint?
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 30, 2023, at 19:38, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vint,
>>>>>> On 31-Aug-23 05:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't agree with that analysis, Darius. The NWG spawned the
>>> International
>>>>>>> Network Working Group (INWG). IETF emerged from the ICCB->IAB
>>> (various
>>>>>>> forms)-> IETF/IRTF.
>>>>>>> IETF is still as collaborative as the original NWG as I see it - more
>>>>>>> formality for sure but still essentially a collaborative enterprise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't there one significant demographic difference, though: the modern
>>>>>> IETF has a *much* higher fraction of participants employed by vendors
>>>>>> than the INWG and the early IETF? Despite the rule that people
>>> participate
>>>>>> as individuals, I suspect that this has a major impact on the way
>>> ideas
>>>>>> flow and mingle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 10:17 AM Darius Kazemi <
>>> darius.kazemi at gmail.com <mailto:darius.kazemi at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Comparing the NWG (at least in the early days of NCP) and IETF
>>> seems to me
>>>>>>>> like comparing a radical experiment in collaboration,
>>> experimentation, and
>>>>>>>> flexibility to... a standards body. Very much apples to oranges?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was not even born when the NWG was doing its thing so please
>>> correct me
>>>>>>>> if I'm out of line here but every bit of research I've done and
>>> every piece
>>>>>>>> of correspondence I've read seems to indicate that even though
>>> there is
>>>>>>>> lineage from one to other it seems like a category error to claim
>>> that the
>>>>>>>> same kind of human social organization was occurring in both orgs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 10:11 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 9:57 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history
>>> <
>>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The original suite of protocols for the Arpanet -- NCP, Telnet,
>>> FTP, et
>>>>>>>>> al
>>>>>>>>>> -- were developed by the Network Working Group (NWG). The NWG
>>> evolved
>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>> the years into the IETF. The formal creation of the IETF was
>>> roughly
>>>>>>>>>> mid-1980s. The process of formally declaring a protocol a
>>>>>>>>>> proposed/draft/(full) standard evolved over the years. Depending
>>> on how
>>>>>>>>>> precise you want to be about the existence of the IETF and the
>>>>>>>>>> formalization of protocols, I think you can make the case either
>>> way.
>>>>>>>>> From
>>>>>>>>>> my perspective, I would say the original suite of protocols did
>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>> originate in the (predecessor of) the IETF.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 12:48 PM Miles Fidelman via
>>> Internet-history <
>>>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Traditionally, protocols have never "originated" with the IETF -
>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> become standardized, and maybe standards through the RFC process,
>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>>>> the IETF aegis. Right back to the original DoD Protocol Suite
>>> (did
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> IETF even exist when the DDN Protocol Handbook was first
>>> printed?).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Miles
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 29-Aug-23 05:52, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/24/2023 4:07 PM, John Klensin via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Probably a larger fraction of applications work has come to
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IETF already half-developed and in search of refinement and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validation by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are examples, but I can't think of an
>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protocol that was originated in the IETF over, say, the last
>>> 25
>>>>>>>>>> years,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has seen widespread success.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that HTTP remains under the IETF umbrella.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But it did *not* originate in the IETF. It actually originated
>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 metres horizontally and 3 metres vertically from my office at
>>>>>>>>> CERN,
>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a year before TimBL presented it at IETF 23 (I was
>>> wrong a
>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>>> days ago to assert that IETF 26 was Tim's first attendance).
>>> The WWW
>>>>>>>>>> BOF
>>>>>>>>>>>> at IETF 26 was more than 2 years after HTTP was first deployed,
>>> to
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> personal knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RFC process, and IANA, that actually matter, in the scheme of
>>>>>>>>> things?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of HTTP, it was running code that long preceded both
>>>>>>>>> rough
>>>>>>>>>>>> consensus and an RFC. I think this is completely normal and
>>> still
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> best method. Second best is code developed in parallel with the
>>>>>>>>> spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Third best is OSI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>>>>>>>>> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>>>>>>>>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>>>>>>>>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>> Google, LLC
>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> until further notice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
--
christian de larrinaga
https://firsthand.net
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