[ih] IETF relevance (was Memories of Flag Day?)

Wed Aug 30 17:41:16 PDT 2023

the X.25 people from France (Transpac- France Telecom), England (PSS/EPSS
British Telecom), Canada (Datapac) and Telenet did their work more or less
concurrently with the development of TCP/IP.

v

On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 5:01 PM John Day via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> I was trying to think of companies that participated. There really weren’t
> any 'networking companies’ yet that weren’t phone companies. Roland
> Bryant’s ACC was about as close as it came to a networking ;-) and he
> didn’t attend INWG.
>
> > On Aug 30, 2023, at 19:56, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
> >
> > John is correct that INWG in its early period and even as IFIP WG 6.1
> has a pretty strong academic character.
> > IETF would have been similar in its early 1986 formation. There are
> probably available attendance statistics for the IETF of today and I would
> not be surprised to see a pretty healthy industry component. Nonetheless,
> with some notable exceptions, my impression is that IETF WGs are still
> pretty collaborative across corporate boundaries.
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 4:47 PM John Day via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> wrote:
> >> Jumping in. INWG in the mid-70s was a different time. Without looking
> at the membership list, which I have, the only ‘vendors’ were phone
> companies that were vertically integrated. DEC and Xerox were there.
> Otherwise, it was researchers and academics. I would guess about half and
> half as far as who was at the meetings, not just on the mailing list. Who
> did I miss?
> >>
> >> Vint?
> >>
> >> > On Aug 30, 2023, at 19:38, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Vint,
> >> > On 31-Aug-23 05:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >> I don't agree with that analysis, Darius. The NWG spawned the
> International
> >> >> Network Working Group (INWG). IETF emerged from the ICCB->IAB
> (various
> >> >> forms)-> IETF/IRTF.
> >> >> IETF is still as collaborative as the original NWG as I see it - more
> >> >> formality for sure but still essentially a collaborative enterprise.
> >> >
> >> > Isn't there one significant demographic difference, though: the modern
> >> > IETF has a *much* higher fraction  of participants employed by vendors
> >> > than the INWG and the early IETF? Despite the rule that people
> participate
> >> > as individuals, I suspect that this has a major impact on the way
> ideas
> >> > flow and mingle.
> >> >
> >> >    Brian
> >> >
> >> >> v
> >> >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 10:17 AM Darius Kazemi <
> darius.kazemi at gmail.com <mailto:darius.kazemi at gmail.com>>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>> Comparing the NWG (at least in the early days of NCP) and IETF
> seems to me
> >> >>> like comparing a radical experiment in collaboration,
> experimentation, and
> >> >>> flexibility to... a standards body. Very much apples to oranges?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I was not even born when the NWG was doing its thing so please
> correct me
> >> >>> if I'm out of line here but every bit of research I've done and
> every piece
> >> >>> of correspondence I've read seems to indicate that even though
> there is
> >> >>> lineage from one to other it seems like a category error to claim
> that the
> >> >>> same kind of human social organization was occurring in both orgs.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 10:11 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
> >> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> +1
> >> >>>> v
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 9:57 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history
> <
> >> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Well...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The original suite of protocols for the Arpanet -- NCP, Telnet,
> FTP, et
> >> >>>> al
> >> >>>>> -- were developed by the Network Working Group (NWG).  The NWG
> evolved
> >> >>>> over
> >> >>>>> the years into the IETF.  The formal creation of the IETF was
> roughly
> >> >>>>> mid-1980s.  The process of formally declaring a protocol a
> >> >>>>> proposed/draft/(full) standard evolved over the years.  Depending
> on how
> >> >>>>> precise you want to be about the existence of the IETF and the
> >> >>>>> formalization of protocols, I think you can make the case either
> way.
> >> >>>> From
> >> >>>>> my perspective, I would say the original suite of protocols did
> indeed
> >> >>>>> originate in the (predecessor of) the IETF.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Steve
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 12:48 PM Miles Fidelman via
> Internet-history <
> >> >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Traditionally, protocols have never "originated" with the IETF -
> they
> >> >>>>>> become standardized, and maybe standards through the RFC process,
> >> >>>> under
> >> >>>>>> the IETF aegis.  Right back to the original DoD Protocol Suite
> (did
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>> IETF even exist when the DDN Protocol Handbook was first
> printed?).
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Miles
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On 29-Aug-23 05:52, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> On 8/24/2023 4:07 PM, John Klensin via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Probably a larger fraction of applications work has come to
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> IETF already half-developed and in search of refinement and
> >> >>>>>>>>>> validation by
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the community
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are examples, but I can't think of an
> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> protocol that was originated in the IETF over, say, the last
> 25
> >> >>>>> years,
> >> >>>>>>>>> that has seen widespread success.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> d/
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Seems to me that HTTP remains under the IETF umbrella.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> But it did *not* originate in the IETF. It actually originated
> about
> >> >>>>>>> 20 metres horizontally and 3 metres vertically from my office at
> >> >>>> CERN,
> >> >>>>>>> more than a year before TimBL presented it at IETF 23 (I was
> wrong a
> >> >>>>> few
> >> >>>>>>> days ago to assert that IETF 26 was Tim's first attendance).
> The WWW
> >> >>>>> BOF
> >> >>>>>>> at IETF 26 was more than 2 years after HTTP was first deployed,
> to
> >> >>>> my
> >> >>>>>>> personal knowledge.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Is it not the
> >> >>>>>>>> RFC process, and IANA, that actually matter, in the scheme of
> >> >>>> things?
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> In the case of HTTP, it was running code that long preceded both
> >> >>>> rough
> >> >>>>>>> consensus and an RFC. I think this is completely normal and
> still
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> best method. Second best is code developed in parallel with the
> >> >>>> spec.
> >> >>>>>>> Third best is OSI.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>     Brian
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> >> >>>>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> >> >>>>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> >> >>>>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> >> >>>>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >> >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >> >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> > --
> >> > Internet-history mailing list
> >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > Vint Cerf
> > Google, LLC
> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > Reston, VA 20190
> > +1 (571) 213 1346
> >
> >
> > until further notice
> >
> >
> >
>
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