[ih] IETF relevance (was Memories of Flag Day?)

[Miles Fidelman]

Well Vint might have a definitive voice on this.

So... Vint,

Would you consider TCP/IP to have been initiated by the NWG?

What about SMTP - which originated as a late-night hack (that eventually 
became SMTP)?  As I recall, that was initially announced via a postal 
mail packet.

Cheers,

Miles

vinton cerf wrote:
> +1
> v
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 9:57 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history 
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org 
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>
>     Well...
>
>     The original suite of protocols for the Arpanet -- NCP, Telnet,
>     FTP, et al
>     -- were developed by the Network Working Group (NWG).  The NWG
>     evolved over
>     the years into the IETF.  The formal creation of the IETF was roughly
>     mid-1980s.  The process of formally declaring a protocol a
>     proposed/draft/(full) standard evolved over the years. Depending
>     on how
>     precise you want to be about the existence of the IETF and the
>     formalization of protocols, I think you can make the case either
>     way.  From
>     my perspective, I would say the original suite of protocols did indeed
>     originate in the (predecessor of) the IETF.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 12:48 PM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
>     internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>
>     > Traditionally, protocols have never "originated" with the IETF -
>     they
>     > become standardized, and maybe standards through the RFC
>     process, under
>     > the IETF aegis.  Right back to the original DoD Protocol Suite
>     (did the
>     > IETF even exist when the DDN Protocol Handbook was first printed?).
>     >
>     > Miles
>     >
>     > Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>     > > On 29-Aug-23 05:52, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
>     > >> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>     > >>> On 8/24/2023 4:07 PM, John Klensin via Internet-history wrote:
>     > >>>> Probably a larger fraction of applications work has come to the
>     > >>>> IETF already half-developed and in search of refinement and
>     > >>>> validation by
>     > >>>> the community
>     > >>>
>     > >>> I'm sure there are examples, but I can't think of an application
>     > >>> protocol that was originated in the IETF over, say, the last
>     25 years,
>     > >>> that has seen widespread success.
>     > >>>
>     > >>> d/
>     > >>>
>     > >> Seems to me that HTTP remains under the IETF umbrella.
>     > >
>     > > But it did *not* originate in the IETF. It actually originated
>     about
>     > > 20 metres horizontally and 3 metres vertically from my office
>     at CERN,
>     > > more than a year before TimBL presented it at IETF 23 (I was
>     wrong a few
>     > > days ago to assert that IETF 26 was Tim's first attendance).
>     The WWW BOF
>     > > at IETF 26 was more than 2 years after HTTP was first
>     deployed, to my
>     > > personal knowledge.
>     > >
>     > >> Is it not the
>     > >> RFC process, and IANA, that actually matter, in the scheme of
>     things?
>     > >
>     > > In the case of HTTP, it was running code that long preceded
>     both rough
>     > > consensus and an RFC. I think this is completely normal and
>     still the
>     > > best method. Second best is code developed in parallel with
>     the spec.
>     > > Third best is OSI.
>     > >
>     > >     Brian
>     > >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>     > In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>     >
>     > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>     > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>     > In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>     > nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>     >
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-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown