[ih] Separation of TCP and IP

[Tom Lyon]

Do you mean this? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1495220850/
"The World According to Professor James A. Finnegan..."

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:10 AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Does anyone have a copy of the Ocean View Tales - I was unable to turn them
> up by searching for the ISI/RR report.
>
> v
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:06 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at
> > https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > > On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > from the presentation
> > >
> > > "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
> > > non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > >> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine
> > metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes time
> to
> > mature, but milk spoils.
> > >> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view.
> > >> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
> > >> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give
> > application access to low latency service.
> > >>
> > >> v
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > >> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in
> > August 2010
> > >>
> > >> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 -
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
> > >>
> > >> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a
> > copy
> > >>
> > >> Scott
> > >>
> > >>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and
> > IP were
> > >>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this
> > separation
> > >>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of
> > UDP, of
> > >>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later
> > became
> > >>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and
> > that the
> > >>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am
> also
> > >>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular
> > stand out).
> > >>>
> > >>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much
> > on this
> > >>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet
> > Meeting
> > >>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds
> > like the
> > >>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day
> > before.
> > >>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31
> > January
> > >>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 &
> 14
> > >>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction
> for a
> > >>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting
> > Notes - 15
> > >>> August 1977", though.
> > >>>
> > >>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting
> > was the
> > >>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
> > >>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the
> > impressions that
> > >>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen,
> > because
> > >>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not
> > correctness. (In
> > >>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3
> > becoming all
> > >>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his
> most
> > >>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have
> > been in
> > >>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like
> things).
> > And
> > >>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure
> the
> > PARC
> > >>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone?
> Did
> > >>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
> > >>>
> > >>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural
> > benefit
> > >>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to
> > _some_
> > >>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the
> > IENs.
> > >>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion
> was
> > >>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
> > >>>
> > >>>      Noel
> > >>> --
> > >>> Internet-history mailing list
> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > >>
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> > >
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>
>
> --
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> Vint Cerf
> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd
> McLean, VA 22102
> 703-448-0965
>
> until further notice
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-- 
- Tom