[ih] Separation of TCP and IP

[Scott Bradner]

I put a pdf of a 4-up handout of the Cohen/Casner talk at https://www.sobco.com/presentations/voip-prehistory.pdf

Scott

> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:38 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> from the presentation 
> 
> "realtime is like milk: keep the newest
> non-realtime is like wine: keep the oldest"
> 
> Scott
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:35 AM, vinton cerf <vgcerf at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 1. Danny was a strong proponent of the split - he had a Milk/Wine metaphor (this might be in one of his Oceanview Tales) - wine takes time to mature, but milk spoils. 
>> 2. Jon Postel and David Reed were very supportive of that view. 
>> 3. The split came with TCP v4 (TCP v3 and v3.1 did not split IP off)
>> 4. Craig's note is correct: UDP is created along with IP to give application access to low latency service.
>> 
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:31 AM Scott Bradner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> a good source is the Cohen/Casner lecture that they gave at Google in August 2010
>> 
>> A Brief Prehistory of Voice over IP parts 1 & 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4
>> 
>> I have a copy of the slides (44 MB) - let me know if you would like a copy
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 3:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm interested in finding out more about the process by which TCP and IP were
>>> separated: to begin with, how it came to be recognized that this separation
>>> was a good thing. (This split was what enabled the later creation of UDP, of
>>> course.) In particular, that the basic service model (of what later became
>>> the internet layer) should be directly usable by applications, and that the
>>> complete data network be accessible not _just_ only via TCP. I am also
>>> interested in who drove this change (if any players in particular stand out).
>>> 
>>> I have poked around a bit in the early IEN's, but I didn't find much on this
>>> specific area - either why, or who. From comments in IEN-22 "Internet Meeting
>>> Notes - 1 February 1978" (in "Introduction and Objectives) it sounds like the
>>> formal decision to do the split was made at the TCP meeting the day before.
>>> The minutes from that meeting, IEN-67 "TCP Meeting Notes - 30 & 31 January
>>> 1978", don't provide much, though. IEN-66 "TCP Meeting Notes - 13 & 14
>>> October 1977" shows that there had been a drift in this direction for a
>>> while; it didn't seem to be present as of IEN-3, "Internet Meeting Notes - 15
>>> August 1977", though.
>>> 
>>> I arrived on the scene shortly after this happened (my first meeting was the
>>> August 1978 one), but I retain some impressions (gained no doubt from
>>> discussions with people like Clark and Reed). These are the impressions that
>>> I retain: that Danny was _a_ significant force in making this happen, because
>>> of his voice work - for which timeliness was important, not correctness. (In
>>> IEN-67, "Arrangements - Cohen" Danny "complain[ed] about TCP-3 becoming all
>>> things to all people".) Is that correct? (If so, it's probably his most
>>> significant technical legacy.) For others, I think Dave Reed may have been in
>>> favour too (perhaps he'd already started to think of RPC-like things). And
>>> perhaps some of the other voice people - e.g. Forgie? And I'm sure the PARC
>>> guys were trying to throw a few clues our way. Am I missing anyone? Did
>>> anyone stand out as being a bigger influence than the rest?
>>> 
>>> Maybe there's some significan paper that discusses the architectural benefit
>>> of making the basic unreliable data carriage substrate accessible to _some_
>>> applications, but the concept didn't seem to get much coverage in the IENs.
>>> Maybe it was so obviously the Right Thing that not much discussion was
>>> needed, and the only question was when/how to do it?
>>> 
>>>      Noel
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