[ih] Interop as part of Internet History (was Re: Fwd: Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway Protocol))
vinton cerf
vgcerf at gmail.com
Thu Sep 10 14:49:52 PDT 2020
the official DARPA project title was "internetting"
in the literature, the more common term was "internetworking"
Catenet was coined by Louis Pouzin
ibm did not call their stuff internetting
xerox parc and novell did refer I think to internetting - but when we
referred to it, the word implied tcp/ip and the Internet vs internet was
about the public versus private use of TCP/IP protocol suite.
networking on the other hand was widespread and included things like
BITNET, EARN, FIDONET, USENET (uucp) and so on.
v
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:41 PM Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> Hmmmmm.
>
> I don't recall ever hearing the specific term "Internetting Project". Was
> that an internal name used within ARPA?
>
> My recollection is that at the time (mid/late-70s), there were a number of
> efforts to interconnect networks, e.g., outside of ARPA, but using similar
> terminology such as "internet". There were multiple "internets" being
> developed, in addition to the one at ARPA.
>
> For example, I found, only about 7 years ago, some mid-70s BBN QTRs about
> the ARPANET project, which included some description of how to create an
> internet by interconnecting multiple IMP subnets. It showed diagrams of
> packet formats to be used in the internal IMP-IMP interactions, e.g.,
> specifying a different IMP network to which a packet should be directed.
> No TCP/IP involved. I never encountered any evidence that anything like
> that was implemented, but someone was thinking about it as a way to
> interconnect networks. This may have been after ARPA handed over the
> ARPANET to DCA.
>
> CCITT was working on X.25, and creating X.75, to interconnect their
> networks. It was a natural evolution of the PTT's prior interconnection of
> their telephone networks. Later, as DDN marched down the X.25 path, the
> subsequent government Internet might have ended up based on X.25/X.75. If
> it worked.
>
> The IBM world also did internetting. I don't know much about it,
> something to do with SNA and LU6.2. I remember though that we sent
> salespeople out to sell IMP networks, with optional Gateways to hook up
> their anticipated LANs. After a few encounters with some "IBM Shops", the
> harassed salespeople told us that there was no way to sell "Gateways" into
> that marketplace. IBM had some "Gateway" product, and it had a horrible
> reputation for being unreliable; no one would consider buying anything that
> involved a "Gateway". So we started calling the TCP/IP boxes "Routers".
>
> The meeting I recall involved seeking a name for ARPA's TCP-based internet
> and the aggregate of the various projects involved in building it. The
> term "internet" had many different meanings to different people, but
> "catenet" was too obscure, and it was too big a mental leap to grok it as
> "concatenated networks". So "internet" became "ARPA Internet" to
> distinguish it from other internets of the day. Somewhat later, I suspect
> after NSF became a player, it evolved into "The Internet".
>
> There were many other internets over the years, e.g., Netware, Apple,
> Microsoft, Banyan, Xerox, DEC, OSI et al had their own internetting
> solutions. TCP/IP by then owned "The Internet", but for a while we had to
> suffer with multiprotocol routers and overlapping competing Internets (I
> had to help run one such beast in the 90s) until all the other solutions
> withered away.
>
> All this is IIRC, of course....
> /Jack
>
>
> On 9/10/20 11:32 AM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>
> 1. original project name: internetting
> 2. rfc 675 first use of "internet"
> 3. catenet used only once in ien #48
>
> v
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Vint,
>>
>> I concur that the genesis of TCP was in 1973, and spawned a collection
>> of separate projects, e.g., Packet Radio, Atlantic Satellite, etc.
>> which along with the ARPANET were forming the core of what we now call
>> Internet.
>>
>> What I was remembering is that the moniker "Internet Project" didn't
>> become permanent until the later 70s, with "internet" replacing the
>> earlier term "catenet", as described in 1978 in:
>>
>>
>> http://catenet.org/index.php/IEN_48_-_THE_CATENET_MODEL_FOR_INTERNETWORKING
>>
>> I recall some meeting, probably 1978/9, where there was a discussion of
>> what to call our new conglomeration of networks. The term "catenet" was
>> proposed, but the general feeling was that it would cause people to
>> envision herds of cats, and the term "internet" achieved the "rough
>> consensus" stage as the best candidate for a name. We already had
>> running code!
>>
>> The ICCB/IAB was also a key element of history, especially as the
>> creator of the IETF and IRTF. Somewhere I have my notes of the ICCB (or
>> was it IAB by then...?) meeting where that happened.
>>
>> Pandemics provide rare opportunities to dig through old boxes in the
>> basement...
>>
>> /Jack
>>
>> On 9/10/20 2:55 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:22 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > That "ACE Coaster" was handed out (by Dan, IIRC) at a small (dozen
>> > or so
>> > people) meeting that Dan called, I think to mostly bounce off ideas
>> > about a training/conference company. Again IIRC this happened
>> > somewhat
>> > before the first actual conference in Monterey, where Dan
>> subsequently
>> > stole the Internet using chocolate-chip cookies as bribes. Vint
>> > never
>> > served such cookies!
>> >
>> > no, but I did offer champagne for winners of the TCP/IP Hackathons.
>> >
>> >
>> > >From my retro-perspective, it was an interesting progression of
>> > events.
>> >
>> > The ARPA "Internet Project" had started in the late 70s with a
>> > somewhat
>> >
>> > no, it started in 1973.
>> >
>> > disjoint set of network-building projects, and had congealed into a
>> > network community, with quarterly meetings.
>> >
>> > At first, the "TCP Working Group" and the "Internet Working Group"
>> met
>> > separately. Quickly we noticed that the TCP group kept coming up
>> with
>> > changes to the IP header, while the IP group saw things that needed
>> to
>> > be in the TCP header, and everyone in one group wanted to
>> > participate in
>> > the other, so "layering" was cast aside and the Internet Project as
>> a
>> > single group was born.
>> >
>> > Over a year or two of such quarterly meetings, the size of the
>> > membership kept growing, and people had to plead with Vint for a
>> > "ticket" to attend.
>> >
>> > It had become difficult to find a willing host that had a venue big
>> > enough to handle the crowd for plenary and breakout sessions. I
>> > hosted
>> > one at BBN, and learned that it is a very bad idea to host a large
>> > meeting in a newly renovated building with lots of free rooms and
>> > space,
>> > but without first testing to make sure the brand-new sparkling
>> > bathrooms
>> > actually worked.
>> >
>> > The logistics of the quarterly meetings were becoming a serious
>> > problem. Then Dan stepped in.
>> >
>> > Instead of a meeting where ARPA and some benefactor host venue
>> > paid the
>> > costs and necessarily severely limited attendance, Dan rented (I
>> > assume
>> > it wasn't free!) a hotel, opened up a "ticket booth" to the masses,
>> >
>> > This is only half correct. Dan indeed opened Internet up to the public
>> > but as I recall, the Internet research program continued in parallel.
>> > The Internet Configuration Control Board (1979) morphed into the
>> > Internet Advisory Board in 1984 with 10 Task Forces after Barry Leiner
>> > took over
>> > the program management of the Internet Project at DARPA. In 1986, IAB
>> > become the Internet Activities Board under Dennis Perry's program
>> > management
>> > at DARPA. see https://www.iab.org/about/history/IAB and IETF and IRTF
>> > continue as
>> > does INTEROP after its sale by Dan Lynch to Masayoshi Son (when?)
>> >
>> > charged attendees a fee that didn't raise too many bean-counters'
>> > alarms, and added a show floor for vendors too, for an appropriate
>> fee
>> > of course. He also recruited many of the people who used to just
>> > attend the quarterly Internet project meetings to provide the
>> > entertainment for all the attendees, and called it training and
>> > program
>> > presentations.
>> >
>> > Not a bad solution to the problem, eh?
>> >
>> > I recall at first there was just a room with some tables and a
>> handful
>> > of vendors showing their wares. That turned pretty quickly into a
>> > trade
>> > show floor in Santa Clara, expanding into Moscone, and before long
>> > heading to Vegas when Moscone was just too small.
>> >
>> > All of this had the overriding mandate that there would be a strong
>> > technical focus, a live network, and vendors had to connect their
>> > stuff
>> > to it. For a few years, I was on the Interop "Program Committee",
>> > which
>> > met around a big table to decide which papers would be put into the
>> > program. It was common to look at a paper, see who was the
>> > author, and
>> > if there was even a hint of "marketing" present, it quickly went
>> > to the
>> > reject pile. Sometimes all it took was a look at the authors'
>> > titles.
>> >
>> > I remember a meeting where Dan took a few of us to Moscone, to
>> > meet with
>> > the powers-that-be about possibly holding Interop there. They were
>> > cordial, but IMHO clearly thought this event-they-never-heard-of
>> > didn't
>> > belong in Moscone. A year later, after blowing out Santa Clara,
>> they
>> > were much more receptive. Doing the "MazeWar" throughout the
>> Interop
>> > show floor was ... interesting. I checked in to my hotel room on
>> > Sunday
>> > at noon, and didn't get back until Tuesday night. After a few
>> > years in
>> > Moscone, it had become too small for Interop, so it was off to
>> Vegas.
>> >
>> > Fun times. Interop was, IMHO, critical to getting the Internet
>> > out into
>> > the real world. Nobody else showed products actually working, and
>> > that
>> > matters to the people who approve the POs.
>> >
>> > But it's a good thing Dan didn't have more of the used-car-salesman
>> > genes. Otherwise we would have all left Interop each year with a
>> new
>> > vehicle. Internet-ready, of course.
>> >
>> > You were wrong, Dan. IMHO, you could have gotten more than 50%....
>> >
>> > /Jack Haverty
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 9/8/20 2:48 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
>> > > Craig, I think you did not copy the list. And while I’m at it,
>> > a small edit. I paid the tutors 15% , a full 50% more than the
>> > competition. I also charged everybody 50% more than the
>> > competition because I felt it was worth it! I even charged the
>> > vendors 50% more than the competition. I turned out that I was
>> right.
>> > >
>> > > Dan
>> > >
>> > > Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
>> > >
>> > > Begin forwarded message:
>> > >
>> > >> From: Craig Partridge <craig at tereschau.net
>> > <mailto:craig at tereschau.net>>
>> > >> Date: September 8, 2020 at 1:14:05 PM PDT
>> > >> To: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com <mailto:dan at lynch.com>>
>> > >> Cc: Craig Partridge via Internet-history
>> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
>> > >> Subject: Re: [ih] Fwd: List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway
>> > Protocol)
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Dan was kind enough to mention me, which makes it a little
>> > harder to send this note but I'll do it anyway.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think Dan underplays how radical Interop was. Vendors had to
>> > connect their equipment to the show network. There was a team of
>> > Internet wizards who helped setup the show network for each show.
>> > (I recall stories of laying things out on netting in a warehouse
>> > so that it could easily be transferred to the show floor). But it
>> > meant products actually worked.
>> > >>
>> > >> And then there was the education component, which as Dan tells,
>> > started things. Dan took the view that he tried to hire the top
>> > instructors in the field and compensate them properly. At a time
>> > when competitors were paying 10% of the gross or $2K, whichever
>> > was less, Dan paid $2K or 10% of the gross, whichever was more.
>> > That meant Interop's courses, instead of being taught by a grad
>> > student or a professor trying out a new course idea, were taught
>> > by folks like Doug Comer and Scott Bradner and Radia Perlman,
>> > teaching their areas of expertise. As a result, the educational
>> > program was immense -- many thousands of students. And because
>> > the instructors were already in town, Dan could recruit us to come
>> > do a panel session for the main program as well. The panels were
>> > often also huge. (I still remember a session I led that included
>> > Dave Clark and a couple of other key folks -- the room was packed
>> > -- probably 5,000 people -- and was so jammed that someone stepped
>> > on the tablecloth for the projector, dumping all our slides [this
>> > was pre-Powerpoint real-time projection] on the floor! So I had
>> > to talk w/o slides while the other speakers ran to the back to
>> > reinsert their slides!).
>> > >>
>> > >> Attending Interop was a full week affair -- you got trained and
>> > then went to the showfloor and conference sessions, while grabbing
>> > a handful of the old Doubletree cookies (twice the size they are
>> > today) during the breaks.
>> > >>
>> > >> The transitions in size were wild. We went from Monterrey, to
>> > the Santa Clara TechMart, to the San Jose Convention center to the
>> > Moscone Center in SF in rapid succession.
>> > >>
>> > >> Craig
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 12:52 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history
>> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>> SoJack, you are asking me to recount how Interop came to be. I
>> > shall do that as quickly as I can here.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> In the early 80s I was at ISI in charge of the computer
>> > facility. After a year or so there came to be a term New Computing
>> > Environment to describe the advent of personal computers and the
>> > death of timesharing! I think Keith Uncapher coined the term, tho
>> > maybe Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf had a hand in it. Anyway fast forward
>> > a few years and I was back in Silicon Valley looking to start a
>> > company like my pals at Stanford had been doing. I looked around
>> > and noticed that the Internet was gaining traction but the nascent
>> > companies had not quite got it right. So I convinced Barry Leiner
>> > who was a program manager there in 85/86 to let me convene a 3 day
>> > workshop on TCP/IP protocols to explain them to the hundred or so
>> > implementation teams out there. I got the actual protocol
>> > designers to come to Monterrey California for 3 days. There was no
>> > company name then. I had no idea where this was going then.
>> > Needless to say the event was a success. The researchers learned
>> > of real life problems the early vendors we’re experiencing and the
>> > vendors learned a lot more about the Internet and what worked and
>> > what still needed further steps.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I now had a business of teaching (through others) the vendors
>> > and advanced customers how the Internet works. I needed a name. I
>> > took the old name above and called it Advanced Computing
>> Environment.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> A few years in to this the world really wanted to see working
>> > systems and I decided to try a trade show, with one critical
>> > addition: the systems had to be connected to an actual working
>> > Internet! And while I was on the phone with one of my brilliant
>> > tutor people from BBN, Craig Partridge, as were were concluding
>> > the call he blurted out “I’ll see you at Interop “. I hung up the
>> > phone and called my lawyer to register the name immediately! I
>> > had been calling it The TCP/IP Interoperability Conference and
>> > Exhibition! Ah, simplicity.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> That was in September of 1988. It had 50 vendors and 5000
>> > attendees. In 1990 it had grown to 200 vendors and 30,000
>> > attendees. Clearly this Internet stuff was catching on, eh?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> So I sold the company and stayed on for 5 more years as the PR
>> > guy and growing it into Europe and Asia.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> 30 years later it still exists in about 10 locations I. The
>> > world. Not quite the same, but still stressing interoperability.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Thanks for asking, Jack.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Dan
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>> > <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Thanks Dan!
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There's so much of the history that didn't get recorded in
>> > RFCs and
>> > >>>> such, and mail list archives from that era are rare. We
>> > weren't very
>> > >>>> good about documenting things, especially the "why" of how
>> > decisions
>> > >>>> were made.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There's plenty of room for more participation! Perhaps you
>> > can provide
>> > >>>> the story behind this artifact of the early Internet?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ACE Coaster
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> That coaster has been sitting on my desk for close to 40
>> > years. The
>> > >>>> lettering is fading, after too many attacks by marauding
>> > coffee mugs
>> > >>>> over the decades, and a few trips to the floor courtesy of a
>> > roaming cat.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The story of ACE, and Interop which followed, is an important
>> > part of
>> > >>>> Internet history. There tends to be a focus on protocols and
>> > >>>> algorithms, but innovations like Interop were, IMHO, equally
>> > important
>> > >>>> to the success of the Internet by making it accessible to the
>> > masses and
>> > >>>> emphasizing the importance of working systems.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Perhaps more important. Tell us the story.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> /Jack
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> On 9/5/20 12:10 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>>>> Forgot to copy the fantastic list!
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Dan
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> From: Dan Lynch <dan at lynch.com <mailto:dan at lynch.com>>
>> > >>>>>> Date: September 5, 2020 at 11:42:36 AM PDT
>> > >>>>>> To: Joseph Touch <touch at strayalpha.com
>> > <mailto:touch at strayalpha.com>>
>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] List archives (Was: Exterior Gateway
>> > Protocol)
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Great! These discussions are amazing, considering that
>> > they are being done by the actual inventors of much of the
>> > Internet some 3 or 4 decades later. We were young then, eh? Of
>> > course they must be open to the world. Thank you Noel, Miles,
>> > Brian, Tony, Vint, Jack, and others I’ve forgotten just now.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Dan
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Joseph Touch via
>> > Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> HI, all,
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa via
>> > Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Touch
>> > >>>>>>>>> FYI - we moved the archives here.
>> > >>>>>>>> I've just noticed that the archives are now only
>> > accessible to list members?
>> > >>>>>>> They should have been open. If anything changed recently,
>> > this is the first I heard. Either way, the setting has been
>> > updated to allow public access.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Please let me know if you continue to find otherwise.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Joe (as list admin)
>> > >>>>>>> --
>> > >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>> > >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> > >>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>>> Internet-history mailing list
>> > >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> > >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Internet-history mailing list
>> > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> *****
>> > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society
>> > activities and mailing lists.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd
> McLean, VA 22102
> 703-448-0965
>
> until further notice
>
>
>
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